DEATH Realm

[Seravy]

I'm suspecting Possession might be overpowered after all.

I mean in theory it's fair - twice the cost and rarity tier, and instead of killing a unit you convert it to your side so twice the effect.

That's the theory. The practice is, stacks are usually mixed and high melee units often have the weakest resistance (Minotaur, Orc Horde, Jacakl Riders, Berserkers, most Halberdiers, etc) so you possess that, and use it to kill the two ranged units next to it, then it double KOs with the other identical unit. So Possession killed 4 enemy units while we considered it a 2.

What made this possible is that change we did to fix the inconsistent behavior - now a unit changing sides will always get to move immediately. (originally this depended on which side is the defender)
This also gives the spell a huge edge over confusion (where you only have a 25% chance to be able to act immediately with the "stolen" unit) so I don't think the higher save is still justified? Although it does have the "normal unit only" limitation so I'm a bit unsure...

[Nelphine]

If possible, I'd really just like to change it so that the unit you possess can't act that turn. If it did that it would be fine (the enemy still has to deal with the possessed melee monster, but it doesn't auto kill 2 units first.)

[Bahgtru]

Same for confusion then, for consistency.

[Seravy]

And that completely defeats the point of fixing the bug with those. I'm against it, we fixed that for a reason, we wanted these spells to be a threat when used by the AI.

[Nelphine]

Right, so confusion has 25% of attacking and killing 2, plus confusion killing the confused unit. But it can be dispelled. But it affects all units. So if we say 25% dispel rate, then confusion, when successful, kills 1.25 units.

Possession is higher rarity, and it immediately kills 2 units, plus killing the possessed unit. It can't be dispelled, but it only affects normal units.

However, normal units tend to have lower resistance than fantastic units, so while the limit is important, for the most part confusion still only affects normal units (until you start bringing spell save and resistance penalties into play).

So, give confusion an extra .5 unit due to higher potential.

Confusion therefore is killing 1.75 units, when it works. Possession currently kills 3.

Both confusion and possession can actually kill a fourth unit, of they have to be realty with by an equal melee unit (for example, the confused or possessed unit is one melee unit in an army of gnolls). Let's say that happens 25% of the time. So each kills an extra .25 units beyond what was already calculated.

So confusion kills 2, and possession kills 3.25.

The cost of confusion and possession should then be compared to each other - a little over 50% better means that currently, possession is well balanced against confusion.

But they should also be compared to direct damage spells of the same tier. For instance, compare confusion against firebolt. Against average resistance of 6, confusion kills 2 units 60% of the time. So confusion kills 1.2 units.

Firebolt on the other hand against average armor 4 on a 6 figure 1 HP unit, does ~3 damage, or 0.5 of a unit. (Lower figure units take more damage, but usually have higher armor and more health to compensate.)

10 mana vs 16 mana would then show that confusion is actually too effective.

[Nelphine]

So given confusion is too effective currently, if we want to bring it down, it should be 0.4 less units.

If we could only kill 1 extra unit instead of the initial 2 extra units, that would drop it by 0.25 *0.6 = 0.15.

If we can't ever kill the initial extra 2, that would drop it by 0.3, which is pretty close to what we want.



So yes, I believe confusion should not get to act on the first round either, when compared to the power of common direct damage spells.

Edit: apparently confusion costs 18 not 16, so we want 0.9, so when we drop it by 0.3 by not allowing the unit to act on the turn it is first confused, we actually get exactly what we want.

[Nelphine]

Also note, confusion gets far more valuable when used on higher tier units, whereas firebolt does not. 

If the unit is 2 HP 6 figure for instance, confusion stays at 0.9 units (or 1.2 currently), but firebolt drops to 0.25 units.

So confusion is definitely overpowered currently, and even if you change it to not act on the first turn, will still be much much better than firebolt for its cost.

[Seravy]

Assuming enemy unit with resistance 7 (about more frequent targets I had this game).

Confusion is 50% success, 25% of actually doing its job, so total 12.5% of working.
Possession is 60% success, 100% doing its job, so 60% total working.
60/12.5 is 4.8 so Possession is almost 5 times more effective than Confusion. That's hard to justify even for a higher cost and rarity.
Confusion can be dispelled (in which case we didn't kill the main target), is random, but affects all units. 
However affecting all units isn't a big plus - Players with Possession also have Black Sleep which also affects all units, also can be dispelled, so if there is a fantastic unit target, you have other options.
So these further weight towards confusion being worse, and possession being better.

Yes, you get a small chance of confusion actually doing its job later if not resisted, but later means the enemy was hurting your units with spells, the units you were supposed to kill were still shooting at you, and the units moved and might not be able to fight, so this can't be compared to Possessions immediate killing effect, at best Black Sleep.

Note direct damage spells and resistance curses have different counters and are intentionally on a different power level. Resistance curses can be negated completely by a single common buff, while direct damage spells will do like 1 fewer damage against common buffs instead. Resistance curses are also more random than direct damage, so they are more powerful by design.

long story short Confusion is good as is, Possession probably isn't. 

Also note how Creature Binding which does the same thing on a much more limited and less ideal set of targets (summon have high resistance at that tier) is very rare and only has 1 better save modifier and a higher cost.

But I could mention Annihilate, which has a 100% chance to kill the same unit, but only that unit. Possession is better, a 60% to kill two or three of them, PLUS costs less and is two tiers lower.

[Nelphine]

Obviously our numbers are completely different. How do you get 25% chajce to do its job?? Its job is to kill the unit it confuses, which is 100% unless dispelled, which I accounted for in my numbers.

And my numbers end up with possession being merely 1.5 (slightly more) times as good as confusion, which actually matches my in game experience. I would rather face lightning bolt and doom bolt rather than face confusion, if I'm using units where possession is a problem.

[Seravy]

It's job is to turn the unit against the enemy and kill their nearby ranged units. That's what makes possession kill 3-4 units and that's why confusion only kills 1, sometimes 2.
You use these spells if you are overwhelmed and need 2-3 enemy units gone. (Sure you CAN use it to kill 1 unit but anything can do that. It's not the relevant case. If you are using it for that, you might as well use Black Sleep, Shatter, or any other save or die spell, really. Or even use direct damage, it's not that powerful but more reliable.)

Lightning Bolt and Doom Bolt are direct damage spells, not save or die spells. You can't compare to those. Save or die is random chance, and each failure means you are taking more and more damage from enemy units. A few failures and you lost the combat. Direct damage is reliable, no risks. But with a 60% chance to kill up to 4 enemy units, taking the risk is the obvious choice, even if it fails, a success next turn or the turn after makes up for it.

I've added a poll, we'll see what people think.
Maybe I'm biased because the enemy has lots of low resistance units and no resistance buffs on them. Non-resistance spells are more reliable overall and work on almost any enemy unit.