RB PBEM #2 - Justinian (SPOILERS!)

[Dreylin]

Chatting with Yaz is always interesting....

me: Still there?

yazilliclick: Yup

me: I've got some prospective intel for you
but you never heard it from me 'K?

yazilliclick: Lips sealed

me: I think that SL gifted Krill one of his Ivory cities

yazilliclick: Krill?

me: I can't see it on anyone else's city lists
Krill still has OB through you
so could get the Ivory home

yazilliclick: Interesting

me: and then trade it out to Darrell....
It's a cheese-ball tactic
and I don't like it at all

yazilliclick: Thanks for heads up. I'll check my screens and see if I can spot it. If so I guess it'll be someone new to declare on sigh

me: The city was called Headingly

yazilliclick: k
Well I should be able to see if he's trading ivory over to darrell

me: but you should be able to spot the Ivory either in Krill's screen or on its way to Darrell
yep

yazilliclick: People really want me dead lol

me: seems that way, yeah

yazilliclick: Well hopefully you're not next haha. Honestly right now I know I'm dead, just trying to make them fall behind having to try and take me out.

me: Cards on the table; it's in my interests for you to last as long as possible
(should be in SL's as well tbh)
Krill benefits by exacting concessions from Darrell, but don't really see SL's gain

yazilliclick: Depends how much SL dedicates to helping out his allies I guess. If he starts making troops for them then it's not worth it. If it he just stands back and trades some strat resources then he's doing good

me: Well it looks like he's handed over a city to get it done ... which is a pretty big deal even temporarily
My guess would be that he's getting a cheap Forge in exchange ... which IMO is an exploit

yazilliclick: The only reason SL has given me is he liked Darrell early on due to tech trades (but yet I gave him good trades and free trade + passage through cap with OB ) and that he was afraid of a big persia as neighbour

me: Hmmm

yazilliclick: Yeah that's pretty sleazy move

me: but he could certainly benefit by eating up the island chunks of Ruff...

yazilliclick: Oh yeah I would have given him everything between us no problem. But he's made it clear he wanted them as allies.

me: Well if you confirm that the city gift has taken place, call attention to it publicly
then I'll make a fuss about cheap building trades

yazilliclick: haha I'll see what I can do You may not want to stick your neck out too far though.

me: I'm pretty safe from SL

yazilliclick: As far as I see things Krill is your only potential ally any time soon
Ruff + Darrell + SL are in some sort of actual alliance.

me: oh really?

yazilliclick: Yeah, I've suspected it for a long time but slowly getting more info on it. Both Darrell and SL have actually used the terms alliance and allies now.

me: Hmmmm

yazilliclick: They're trying hard to keep it secret though

me: Something for me to watch then

yazilliclick: Yeah From what I gather at least the Ruff + SL part which affects you isn't just to take me down either.

me: Interesting
BTW, could you do me a favour?
you have visibility on Darrell's research, right?

yazilliclick: yeah

me: could you keep me in the loop on that?

yazilliclick: Yeah np

me: Cool, want to see how he reacts next turn....

yazilliclick:

Hmmm, so a Darrell/Ruff/SL alliance would be bad news if true, but knowing what I do about my relations with both it's by far from certain what shape it is. I guess I'll find out in a few turns when Darrell pops CS whether he's going to keep tight rein on it, or if it immediately circulates ... though with his GNP advantage, anyone trying to keep up with him in research and trade 1for1 is going to be on a loser.

[Dreylin]

I actually received this from SL before playing the turn, but wanted to wait before replying:

Hey Dreylinian I,

Just a quick note to say that i completed Calendar so please feel free to push through the Calendar - Compass trade as agreed. I completely forgot to do it this morning!

Have you any plans on where to head next? Perhaps we can co-ordinate so as not to duplicate once again?

Cheers,
Sitting Bull of the Native Americans

Sitting Bull,

Trade request sent in-game; you should have Compass next turn to start putting out those Harbours!

I see you're going after Music next, and I have no plans to compete with you for that target - partly because I don't think I could beat you... I'm grabbing Drama next to enable my UB, but after that I have no clear goal yet ... probably something in the lower regions of the table though.

Cheers,

Dreylinian I.

Note the lack of mention of his missing cities and the ongoing war with SL; while I want to hear what he has to say about both, I don't want to tip my hand that I've noticed just yet.

[Dreylin]

OK, now here's some important news:

Square: Hey Dreylin - you ok for a quick chat?

me: probably
(may be a little distracted)

Square: ok - Well I'll just post and if you don't answer I won't be offended!

me: 'K

Square: Before Yaz declared on me again for trading Ivory to Darrell, I sent him writing to enable him to get CoL from you. But now we are at war again i can't broker the techs for you.

me: Yeah, I had noticed

Square: Also - neither of you have alphabet to trade the techs yourself.

me: indeed

Square: I feel bad from your point of view so I would like to make amends and front you Alphabet. So long as I get a settler in return within a nominated timeframe - 10t for example.

me: I'm still working out where I can get a Settler out for you

Square: would that be ok?

me: Hmmmm
I'd need to see the turn again
(well next turn)

Square: ok - well - I go before you so I shall offer Alphabet in game - if you are happy just accept the deal, otherwise decline it and we can talk again.
I have tried to contact Yaz recently but he isn't talking to me understandably, but if he wants alphabet then he can take it from you if you give me Monarchy from him - I owe you a brokerage fee though!
otherwise i'll have to reseach it myself at some point.

me: Heh
I think that I should be able to get a Settler to you in <10t
(and it's probably best that we arrange a timeframe, otherwise I'll keep putting it off!)

Square: cool - like I said before - I won't be founding any cities on our border with it. In fact - I am tempted to leave both those spots for now.

me: got some nice land to your SE?

Square: The Island to my south has enough room for a few cities first - although it is an odd shape...
It's ok - very thin!

me: aha

Square: same calendar resource as mainland!
doh!

me: well at least you got one on your Island!
more than I did

Square: That's disappointing...
I do feel we are slightly more cramped than the others - in particular Krill and Darrell are quite far apart

me: Ah, I haven't got that far yet

Square: you wait and see!

me: just passing Yaz

Square: ok - I'd reccomend the northern route to krill via Darrell... I went south and it added a few turns on there,

me: Did you say you had tried supplying Ivory to Darrell?

Square: yeah - yaz squashed it

me: not surprising

Square: no - i did put little beards and hats on them as they sailed through his capital but he was a little more astute than I had hoped!

me: I guess I still don't understand why you aren't helping Yaz out though
surely Ruff's lands would be a good target for you...?

Square: Yeah - it would but I am not interested in warring really - I'd rather build my way up.

me: but you did just comment that we were cramped!
and that leaves you 2-ways to expand - through me, or through Ruff

Square: or upwards.

me: true enough I suppose

Square: The island to my south has enough room to get me to 10 cities - I don't think that is too bad at all. That includes not settling towards you anymore also

me: Hmmm, sounds like a decent total
though I hear that Krill's most of the way there already! 8)

Square: I am not going to be going through you with cataphracts around am I?? The time for attaking Byzantine lands has passed - we chose to be friends!

me: Heh

Square: Krill is storming away - I am tempted to cut him out of trades... I don't have any lined up at present. you?
Personally i think you are going to be in the best position to stop him.
You have the best offensive unit in the game for its era and are next door.

me: Is he SE of me?
O circumnavigator

Square: Thnaks!
He is... just a sec...
yes - more or less although his capital is still north of the equator.
I cannot tell exactly but I'd say his capital is about the same as Lords...
Latitude

me: 'K

Square: There is an island in between you that i don't know the extent of yet.

me: That must be East of my southern island

Square: It is about 7 or 8 tiles south of the crabs in your northern outback

me: trying to find a map

Square: yep...
just a sec...
Just sent it to your keiper address

me: interesting
that is pretty close to me

Square: Yeah - but you said there was no way to get through?

me: (infact now I look, I can see the borders bleeding under my FOW

Square: So the fun is about to begin for you!

me: There may have been one location I could have founded
to create a bridge
but it would have been a crappy city!

Square: haha - Will his city bridge the link?
I don't think it has expanded borders yet

me: no
I think it has popped borders
(from what I can see)

Square: Ah - i was just glancing at the map

me: yeah, must have

Square: Well - weleome to the 2 neighbour club!
That city isn't on his mainland from what i can tell. Will be able to confirm in a few turns

me: Well there we go
wouldn't have spotted that without you telling me!

Square: His work boat came from the gap in the middle
Out of interest
What do you need to do to get Trade routes with him?
Just have touching borders?
that don't go through ocean?

me: I think that's do it
or even a borders to coast link
(but I think that's out)

Square: Maybe for now but once the 3rd rings pop?
I wish my WB didn't have to go all the way back the way it came!

me: Well 3rd rings out to sea are less predictable

Square: Don't they depend on land elsewhere>?

me: yeah
Looking at it though, I think that city will link him across once 3rd ring pops
(of course that's 1-player transit)

Square: ok - cool - just means we will be able to trade both ways around the world in stead of just 1.

me: possibly, yeah
(not 100% on how that works)

Square: me either - guess we will just see what happens!
Nice talking to you - I'll send alphabet along when I play the save. cya

me: OK, cool

Here's the image that SL sent me, followed by an image I snapped myself once I realised where SL was talking about:


(I promise to try and get those overview shots later today)

The bleed certainly suggests that once Krill's city pops 3rd ring that will open up a passage for him across to that island, so finding out now could prove very valuable in that it will enable me to start working on some sort of defensive force to forstall any potential first-strike from Krill. A couple of Triremes lurking around the area and a few more troops on land should be enough as an initial show of force.

Also gave me a chance to push SL a little bit about his relations with Ruff/Darrell/Yaz ... maybe I buy his "growing vertically" rationale, but it still seems to me that chaos in the West is to his advantage more than cosying up to his other neighbour. I pushed a little there, but I don't think too much ... I hope not too much!

The fronting of the Alpha-Settler deal is also interesting - guess I'll have to get in touch with Yaz again - and at least it will get me on a timeline for delivery (something I can't put off). I've got the next two Settlers' locations chosen; Red Dot in the SE is the destination for the just-completed one, and I want to grab the Western Island ASAP before a 3rd-ring pop can reveal it to SL/Ruff. I think Thessalonica will start a Settler next turn (just completed Worker) to head West, and I figure that Antioch can do the one for SL once it has finished Moai. Adrianople can start to put out a few ships after the Forge ... or maybe make a run at a couple of cheap Stone Wonders?

[Dreylin]

Here are the long-awaited overview shots; first the core of my lands:


(you've seen my SE island a couple of times already now)

Here's a larger-scale shot of the minimap - from the Military screen:


I've highlighted the Warriors so you can see the city locations (the farthest Northeast is a fogbuster, and the one in the sea is heading for Red Dot.

Oh, and I decided to keep with the Chariot naming scheme and now have Duck Season and Wabbit Season to go with Elmer Fudd.

Finally, here's a shot of my current finances:


I'll take some shots of the graphs in a couple of turns once I have access to Darrell's, and if there are any other specific things you'd like to see, just ask and I'll see what I can do.

[Dreylin]

Letting Yaz know that I'll have Alphabet soon:

me: Me again!

yazilliclick: oh noes

me: heh
SL grabbed me for a while
We've had an Alpha trade on the cards for a while; he offered me the tech up-front
so if you don't get CoL from Krill, I'll be able to do the trade directly next turn

yazilliclick: OK good
Did he mention my trade with him?

me: yeah
said he's still prepared to do it through me if you're interested

yazilliclick: yeah

me: Though personally, I don't see Alpha gaining you much/anything
and HR will help SL out a bit
(between you and me, of course)

yazilliclick: I'm trading monarchy

me: yeah; meant Hereditary Rule

yazilliclick: bah right
Was thinking HBR
Well I'll think about it but will likely go through anyways. If by some miracle I do survive then alphabet is somewhat key.
And god knows my research rate sucks atm

me: well I'm happy to be middleman if you need one

[Dreylin]

Brief reply from Krill with directions:

Dreylin,

Will do with CoL, and you need to head straight SW from Yaz's capital. Once you meet American culture, head straight west, and you'll eventually meet me.

Krill

And then Yaz pops up...

yazilliclick: Guess who

me: eeek!


yazilliclick: :P
Going back through the turns it looks like SL gifted a city (Kandy) to Ruff. I'm guessing the city you named was renamed to Galle

me: Hmmmm

yazilliclick: Ruff didn't rename Kandy so i know it was gifted to him.

me: yeah
I'd noticed that one

yazilliclick: Krill isn't gifting ivory to darrell though

me: as of last turn, yeah

yazilliclick: true
I'll keep an eye out for it
Galle shows up same turn the other city disappears though and stays in that position in trade window. I think they're placed in order they were founded right?

me: yeah, I think so
maybe I just lost track

yazilliclick: I could be wrong, I'll keep and eye out though

me: I'm going to go through a few turns myself to check now
Oh, and Krill says he'll pass CoL over to you on my behalf

yazilliclick: Good I wouldn't be surprised if I made a mistake. it's certainly fun looking though :P

me: heh

yazilliclick: Plus I was too lazy to use paper to keep track of what I was seeing

me: heh

...
...
...

me: OK, I officially feel stupid

yazilliclick: Well at least it's official

me:
I guess that SL decided that his off-island cities should be named after other countries' cricket grounds rather than sticking with just British

yazilliclick: lol

me: Galle & Kandy are both Sri Lankan
(thanks Wikipedia)

yazilliclick: Well at least you know what his naming scheme is, I hadn't the slightest. But then didn't try figuring out either.
:D
There's nothing wikipedia doesn't know it seems

me: Ah well, it's obvious to a Brit

yazilliclick: Cricket != Hockey so i don't need to know anything about it

me: heh

Gah, well I'll enjoy reading the mocking in the Lurker's thread over this one. Sooooo glad I didn't say anything in public, but now at least I can go and pester SL about getting rid of Headingly (I have Yorkshire roots), and I guess if he's changing countries with different landmassess then he's not going to get around to using my teams - Hampshire play at The Rose Bowl.

Thinking about it, I'ma bit surprised he din't use Aussie grounds for the NW island....

[Dreylin]

Well whadda ya know, Darrell noticed I grabbed Theology and wants to talk. It's a long one, so I'll summarize a the bottom:

Darrell: hey

me: Hi

Darrell: nice theology bulb

me: ty
were you after it?

Darrell: yeah

me: ah

Darrell: no longer

me: I'd probably be willing to trade it...

Darrell: yay
what you wnat for it?
construction + something?

me: dunno
will need to look at research targets

Darrell: only caveat would be Id like to delay construction until yaz is good and toasty, cause hes llikely to be teching it
yes, agreed
do you have designs on the AP?
I'd like to avoid racing for that

me: Er, yeah!

Darrell: figured...so you'd be not wanting to trade itt o me then :P

me: then don't try to build it
Aha
Guess I'll wait until it's built then

Darrell: probably a good idea

me: You'd not be willing to sign a no-build clause?
or is that the attraction of the tech?

Darrell: the tech had a few nice things with it, that was primary

me: *only attraction

Darrell: I tell you what
I'm more than halfway done teching it
and I'm IND, and have site setup to get it fast.
Howeve,r I don't wnat to race

me: (then don't)

Darrell: let's trade the rest of theology on my side for construciton, I agree not to chase AP, you agree not to chase Music
I'll swap to HG instead
you can do AP without fear

me: I'll need to think about that

Darrell: well, can you think fast?
I would like to end my turn but I need to know if I shoudl swap research or not
(thanks for th100% discount if you decide "no") :P

me: nah, 100% * 1/5
(at least that's how I'm told it works)

Darrell: yeah, but it did shave a turn for me, based on the estimate

me: (or maybe 1/6)

Darrell: no you are right I think
looking at it now
I'd be swapping to music next
if you agree or dont
after theology
so we'd be racing either way
but I'd get a head start unless drama complete this turn

me: I'm not going for Music

Darrell: oh
hmm
then whats the issue?
your giving up, essentially, nothing
unless you wanted the HG?

<andy thinks what not to give away>

me: <Andy finishes saying goodnight to his Wife and promises not to be very long>

Darrell: hah-hah...very nice

me: <then goes back to looking at tech costs>

Darrell: RL intrustion on your civ existiend
tbh, and Im biased so feel free to ignore me, if I was you'd I'd offer to gift me theology to avoid an AP race
a couple of turn head starts vs. IND with a hammer heavy capital and the big b?
not saying you won't win anyway, but why risk it over a few beakers...
and I'm being honest here, not just trying to get a deal...

me: Sorry, just checking the tech costs

Darrell: I understand
in other news, the GM is born next turn

me: I could point out that I get "the big B" a turn after you do

Darrell: I know

me: and don't need a revolt to get it going

Darrell: I know
I just doubt your capital is as hammer heavy as mine
its not so common on a water map

me: also makes a bigger difference to my ETA than yours since I'm not IND

Darrell: could be, but I doubt it
I'll be +150% between IND, OR, Forge, and Big B.

me: So the deal you're proposing is this:
I trade you Theo for Const
you agree not to build AP
no-trade clauses on both

Darrell: correct
you dont chase the HG I guess

me: and a small delay on receiving Const?

Darrell: since the whole point is I dont want to race for a wonder
when I can avoid it
(yes on teh const delay)

me: What do you envisage as the likely delay?

Darrell: and finally, not that it apparently matters, you don't pursue music
hmm
A dozen turns is probably too much to ask?

me: (I had been flirting with Music)

Darrell: When do you see yourself needing the tech?

me: No war planned, Drama gives me a (much) better Happy building, I have 2 1-tile rivers in my area so bridges don't matter
Shall we say 10t?

Darrell: okay
that seems fiar
now, in 10t if yaz is still a threat do you mind if we revisit the topic
extensions I'll make up in some way
so to get you to agree to more than 10, I ahve to find a suitable payment

me: in 10t if Yaz is still a threat then you need better allies...

Darrell: funny you should say that
ruff and I wwere chatting and at the end I was like "you know, with 7 cities on military to his one, it is kind of sad we're worried"

me: Ah, but he has 2 cities again!

Darrell: does he?
dirty dog

me: You didn't know!?!?!?
Too busy chasing Wonders!


Darrell: yeah
AP is huge on this map, but I hate risk

me: Agreed
Deal is signed

Darrell: okay
you can't imagine my sadness
just curious, what were the odds on the GP and was this planned all along?
I had a darn nice micro plan in place

me: The only limit I'd place on Const-delivery extensions is 2-fold:
1) revist if I end up at war (unlikely)
2) max delay to acquision of Engineering
(don't anticipate either being an issue, but better safe than sorry)

Darrell: okay, that's quyite reasonable

me: Can I ask 2 questions to satisfy my curiosity?

Darrell: just for my curiosity, I think I would have the AP in 7-8 turns. can you post in your thread if I would win, so I can read it after game
Yes you can
actually 8-9 due to anarchy

me: Actually, it was that

Darrell: but once I realized I was in a race, I'd probably chop two forests and screw the health

me: (I was going to offer to answer as well)

Darrell: that would bring it down by maybe 2-3 turns

me: 7-8t from now?

Darrell: Im guessing 7
yes
t83 or t84

me: You're on t76 now, right?

Darrell: yes
it could have been t85

me: so ~t84-ish?

Darrell: lets say t85
just to not oversell it

me: 'K

Darrell: not 100% sure about the forests cause worker turns are close

me: my envelope calculation this morning made it t83

Darrell: SPI bastard

me: assuming big B

Darrell: if you win, that's it I think
yeah

me: and chopping 2 forests

Darrell: with chops and maximum attention t84 would not surprise me, since I go first that means with SPI I'd be turn 83 :P
if you want I can sim it out in WB...I'm kind of curious if I can make t83 now

me: heh

Darrell: just not time I guess, but it would be fun to know for sure
SPI is so underrated

me: second question was what is your capital productivity?
(mine is 16h base)
at maximum
Actually, I could squeeze a couple more from Specialists
(probably)

Darrell: your base is 1 better than mine, but I have +15F at size 4, so I get pretty nice hammers from whips
thats what makes things so hard though, I have to do a lot of micro to get it to work out right

me: true, I wasn't counting whips

Darrell: I am running an engineer from my forge next turn after the GM comes in

me: That could make mine down to t82

Darrell: no priests tho
Do you have OR and a forge?

me: I've been running Priests (obv)
OR, yes
no Forge yet

Darrell: so you are +75% under big b, makes 20 raw 35

me: but I have overflow and a 3-4t headstart

Darrell: I am +150% makes 18 raw 45
3-4?
you just got theo right?

me: a guess

Darrell: if you started this turn you have 3

me: yeah, but I could start this turn

Darrell: yeah
you probably did
you get 4 turns on me due to SPI and that fact

me: ya'think?

Darrell: but I get more hammers from my forests

me: yes

Darrell: I bet if I micro it right I can get t83, but not t82

me: It would have been a close race

Darrell: yeah
best to avoid for sure

me: I figured that I was up against Krill's second Preist

Darrell: for theo?

me: which I had popping t83

Darrell: and AP?

me: yeah

Darrell: if he's running pure priest I'll eat my hat

me: didn't realise anyone was researching it

Darrell: but best to be paranoid
I started it two turns late too
that was stupid on my part

me: Well based on his Wonder city

Darrell: cities
he's a machine

me: Huh?

Darrell: while Im fighting yaz hes using IND

me: Stonehenge & Oracle are in same city
hasn't finished anything yet

Darrell: yeah but you got to figure he's builing at least 1-2 more
first to lit

me: true

Darrell: first to mc

me: Ruff was Lit, no?

Darrell: I tought krill beat him to it

me: or did Krill gazzump him?
Ah, haven't met Krill yet

Darrell: no wonder
yeah you guys are super far apart
my workboat just found your borders BTW

me: Anyway, with no pollution, his SH/OR city gives a 100% Priest on ~t83

Darrell: I'll be looking for that, I need one for the temple of solomon
probably cost me a fortune

me: I polluted mine a little
(with Science)
figured I'd grab Philo & nab Angkor Wat if it went wrong
BTW, since I'm giving you Drama when it finishes

Darrell: not a bad plan at all
oh yeah, when is that
might be best to wait and start then
eh
just in case krill is going for it I will just start it

me: I'll finish it in a couple of turns

Darrell: okay
any desire for music?

me: At some point, probably


Darrell: okay, keep it in mind :P

me: Will do

Darrell: okay got to run, have a good night

me: yeah, you too

Darrell: and congrats on the AP, its a fab wonder on this map

me: yeah, looking forward to it

So to summarise:

I trade Theology to Darrell (immediately, I think)
Darrell trades me Construction in 10t time*
Darrell agrees not to build the AP
I agree not to build the Hanging Gardens
I agree not to pursue Music

*numerous clauses attached to Construction trade:
1) If Yaz is still a threat in 10t (and doesn't already have Const) I will renegotiate delivery
2) If I enter a state of War, we revisit
3) Maximum delay is until I would receive Engineering.


Racing for the AP would be close; I can probably muster a little more production in my cities if pushed, however his multipliers outstrip mine quite quickly. It would all have depended on whether I could ride my headstart all the way to the prize.

Woohoo!

(I completely fail to mention that SL is targetting Music, and manage not to make a comment that Krill and I are actually damnably close rather than miles away!)

I should probably also get some of the Stone Wonders underway ... who knows I might grab one, and if not I should get a decent payoff.

[Rowain]

(I completely fail to mention that SL is targetting Music, and manage not to make a comment that Krill and I are actually damnably close rather than miles away!)

The wise man knows when to hold his tongue

[Dreylin]

The wise man knows when to hold his tongue

Yup.

Hopefully Yaz will come through and let me know what Darrell's ETA is for Music and then I can use that knowledge to get a decent deal for Drama from SL...

[Dreylin]

Oh, and Darrell also sent me something last night, having though about it some more:

I tihnk I get 100-50 = 50 from forests and +10/turn in production on you
but you get 4 turns on me
which is 140 hammers
so you hade a 90 hammer edge I need to make up
I can make up 15*2.5 with a good whip overflow (that is 37)
so that puts me 53 down
I make that up in 5 turns
it wold really come down to who can whip the WONDER, amazingly enough
based on my calcuations if I took the Corn away from New York, I could whip and finish it mabye on t81, definitely on t82
so fudge
good deal for you I guess, but no doubt you could do tricky micro and get it on t80 now

Well IMO it's about time I got a good deal from him!