Test games played

[Seravy]

I do explain my picks in the video yes.
For this last game I went for Alchemy Archmage Conjurer Tactician, 4 Sorcery 3 Death 1 Life. It's starting to go better than the first two but it's very slow to be honest. Overall it feels significantly inferior to werewolves and even skeletons+combat spells. Unless it gains momentum and starts to do the thing zombie mastery does, it's still below average. I see minimal chance it'll end up overpowered at this rate and I already saw an enemy with a summon ghouls can't do anything about (gargoyles).

[Seravy]

Third ghouls game video : https://youtu.be/kiDmcnZbZTc

Seriously, I didn't expect ghouls to be overpowered but I expected them to be at least average, and expected to need to explain numbers and whatnot to be able to claim they don't do any better than other Death strategies...but no. They managed to be far far far weaker than that. So shockingly useless I'll probably never summon a ghoul again. And this is without running into any enemy that uses hard counters to ghouls - fighting a wizard with Gargoyles, Unicorns, Shadow Demons, Mana Leak, I had none of that.

[jhsidi]

I guess there are a few points to make. I'll preface by saying -- I don't think ghouls are overpowered. That hasn't been my point (personally) when talking about them. Rather, it's that they are IMO the only viable strategy for raising undead, which is kind of lame, and that _in some cases_ they can raise undead in a way that makes for an unbalanced (or boring) game. So my points:

- Ghouls usually aren't a great strategy versus enemy wizards. Sure, they perform great against some wizard types, and some races... Nature with High Men? Sure. Most others, no, because they'll chip away that the very valuable stack of ghouls. SO
- As a result, your map has to be good. I just tried a test game and *every* ruin around me was either occupied by a bunch of Death creatures (not werewolves, ugh) or ranged attackers that will wreck my stack and aren't worth much as undead, e.g. "lots of fire giants". So already the ghouls strategy is going to perform poorly in, let's say, half of all maps.
- Ghouls aren't as powerful, as a strategy, as the most powerful strats out there. I'd say werewolves are definitely more powerful (or at least were, prior to their changes, I haven't played them since) for fighting enemy wizards.

So what's a powerful map for ghouls? Here are some creatures I want to raise: Great Lizard, Chaos Spawn, Efreet, Djinn, Hydra (but these are now much more difficult, with Regen 7), Werewolves (newly available strategy). If I could roll a map with the perfect distribution of lairs containing these monsters, I'll steamroll, but it's not likely. It's semi-likely that I'll get a few of them, though.

Second test game, I roll a crappy map again! Tons of skeletons and zombies. I got Earth Lore to help quickly suss things out, though, and I see a node with just "Djinn" some distance away. So I've beelined over to that and now have 2 Djinn. Is that bad, in 1404? Decide for yourself, but it does seem strange that I've got one on the top two Sorcery creatures years before an 8-10 book Sorcery build could get them... Anyway, my Death stack is now decently powerful, since I can have two powerful Death casters to support my 6 ghouls, although the rest of my empire is anemic.

I'm not set up to take video at the moment, but here's my save game: https://ufile.io/dxny1

I started with:
3 Nature: Web / Earth lore (2nd isn't important, just QOL for me)
3 Death: Ghouls / Darkness
3 Sorcery: Focus Magic / Resist Magic

Conclusion -- For me, the problem isn't so much that ghouls are overpowered.. usually, they're not. It's that 1) I can raise Very Rare creatures early in the game as undead, and 2) I raised them with ghouls, a Common level spell, which is generally dissatisfying. I wish that Death were better balanced to become more powerful at raising undead over time, rather than starting with *the very best* spell. But it's not -- and as a result everything in Uncommon and Rare is useless to me for this entire strategy.

[jhsidi]

By the way, there's a lair just northeast of the position I picked up the Djinn that contains several Hydra and some Fire Giants. With the Djinn spellcasting skills I raised a Hydra, at the cost of 2 lost Ghoul units. You can give this a try in the save game, just Focus one more ghoul + the Djinns and use Black Prayer and Darkness. I suspect that if you dedicated the rest of your SP to Black Sleep, all 3 Hydra could be raised. At that point in the game, it could be a steamroll -- just use the Djinn to ferry around the 3 Hydra and stomp everything flat. Bonus points for casting Focus Magic on the Hydra.

As it is, with just 1 Hydra I walked over to Merlin's capital and defeated him (he was a bit low on mana). He happened to be a wizard type vulnerable to ghouls -- pure Life, gnolls race. I'd need a few more undead regen units to do the same to the other two wizards. Or, with the Djinn, I can break the nearby Wraiths Tower and try taking over Myrror. Not bad, for a game that started off looking grim for the Ghouls strategy.

[Bahgtru]

Watching second half of the first, and it's painful.

- the guardian spirit is a fantastic find - scout and keep it for the first easy node you find, it almost doubles its income. No you throw it away
- why would you ever split your ghoul force? Of course 7 nomads wipe out 3 ghouls. Keep them together and it's a non issue. Nope, no one suggests guardian wind
- you lost the buffed ghoul, to which I can only answer, told you so. Don't buff till you have 8
- do more triremes
- yes, ghouls are slow, choose a race that helps them, nomads are useless, even klackons would be better thanks to roads.

More sorcery is totally useless.
This would really be easier if you copy pasted what you type, it only costs you a copy paste and also Nelphine would be able to at least read something.

[Bahgtru]

I guess there are a few points to make. I'll preface by saying -- I don't think ghouls are overpowered. That hasn't been my point (personally) when talking about them. Rather, it's that they are IMO the only viable strategy for raising undead, which is kind of lame, and that _in some cases_ they can raise undead in a way that makes for an unbalanced (or boring) game. So my points:

- Ghouls usually aren't a great strategy versus enemy wizards. Sure, they perform great against some wizard types, and some races... Nature with High Men? Sure. Most others, no, because they'll chip away that the very valuable stack of ghouls. SO
- As a result, your map has to be good. I just tried a test game and *every* ruin around me was either occupied by a bunch of Death creatures (not werewolves, ugh) or ranged attackers that will wreck my stack and aren't worth much as undead, e.g. "lots of fire giants". So already the ghouls strategy is going to perform poorly in, let's say, half of all maps.
- Ghouls aren't as powerful, as a strategy, as the most powerful strats out there. I'd say werewolves are definitely more powerful (or at least were, prior to their changes, I haven't played them since) for fighting enemy wizards.

So what's a powerful map for ghouls? Here are some creatures I want to raise: Great Lizard, Chaos Spawn, Efreet, Djinn, Hydra (but these are now much more difficult, with Regen 7), Werewolves (newly available strategy). If I could roll a map with the perfect distribution of lairs containing these monsters, I'll steamroll, but it's not likely. It's semi-likely that I'll get a few of them, though.

Conclusion -- For me, the problem isn't so much that ghouls are overpowered.. usually, they're not. It's that 1) I can raise Very Rare creatures early in the game as undead, and 2) I raised them with ghouls, a Common level spell, which is generally dissatisfying. I wish that Death were better balanced to become more powerful at raising undead over time, rather than starting with *the very best* spell. But it's not -- and as a result everything in Uncommon and Rare is useless to me for this entire strategy.

All in all I agree with your take. Ghouls are a potentially very powerful, but very brittle strategy - as long as anything goes wrong you've probably lost, but catch some powerful creatures early - like your example, wow! - and they work in lunatic. Remove that possibility, and they can be thrown away.
As I am the kind of player that dislikes the second half of the game - where everything is decided already, but the end is still a long and boring clickfest away- and that deals with the first part like a game of chess rather than the select all and attack thing that Seravy seems to do with WWs - they are just right for me: they make the second half either fast, or not happening (you lose).
OP or not is a matter of opinion, but I think we all agree that they are extremely situational. I don't think that that's a bad thing. It allows for different play-styles.

[Nelphine]

Hmm. The following is just to replicate zombie mastery.

Let's see, summon 9 ghouls (costs.. 594? 2 death, 3 life, 2 sorcery, 2 nature, tactician, conjuror, cult leader, high men - seriously, I can't imagine a build that actually chooses nomads. I don't understand what they're good for, except horsebowmen abuse.)

9 books is what, 18 skill to start?

Put heavenly light on 3 cities first, so 754. Assuming I don't put anything into skill, that's going to take me 42 turns. So more like 33 turns. I'll get all 3 easy lairs, and if not death, that's 3 lairs worth of undead (guardian spirits are amazing as undead. Sooooo good for income).

By this point I will have met 1 or 2 AI. Typically, at least one of them will be in a position where I can attack them, and they will send offensive units towards me in a predictable path. So, take the 9 stack, and attack something weak. Like a new hamlet (this should be done as early as possible to avoid having to deal with things like 9 naga, so 5-8 ghouls CAN make it work if you're watching enemy units carefully, so turn 25 is a good target) Now you're at war, and still summoning ghouls because you'll start to take casualties. The ai sends a bunch of random units toward you. If doesn't matter what they are, attack them when they're weak (6 ghouls vs 2 naga or 2 sprites or 4 halberdiers, etc) You'll collect a 9 stack of undead very quickly. Once I've got at least 15 ghouls, I should have enough to replace casualties, and I start buffing the main stack so they can attack harder things. Usually by now I've got multiple stacks of undead crap from the wizard I'm at war with.

Move in. Undead become garrisons, or meat to weaken stacks so that the ghouls don't stop moving or attacking new targets. Against the first ai, unless he can get a decent stack going (but you're attacking him semi constantly and just collecting things), even lone or pairs of things like werewolves or spiders or even gargoyles, will die.

Take out random lairs or nodes if you can. Start the same tactic on the second AI as soon as you can get a 9 stack of ghouls near where you can collect units.

The first ai typically falls to largely unbuffed ghouls plus whatever random undead stacks you need to take out the fortress.

The second AI needs buffed ghouls.

The third AI needs decent undead units (like focus magic cockatrice).

The fourth AI needs treasure hunting abuse (see post above regarding djinn or hydra.)


But the point of this description is to replace zombie mastery. Just go to war as soon as you can start collecting random units with at least the first and usually the second AI. And just collect things. You don't need to kill him, you just convert everything you can into undead. You don't get crappy zombies, you get actual units. So eventually you'll get something you can break the fortress with, and eventually you'll get things you can go lair hunting with, and eventually you'll find lairs that are abusable.

[Nelphine]

But jhsidi said it the best. Ghouls are the best way to make undead. If undead are a core theme, then it really sucks that everything after that gets worse. I want to look forward to higher death spells, but I don't. I just look at ghouls, and whether you can make them work or not, nothing else compares to them in undead creation.

[Seravy]

Conclusion -- For me, the problem isn't so much that ghouls are overpowered.. usually, they're not. It's that 1) I can raise Very Rare creatures early in the game as undead,

That's easy to address then. I'm already planning to add "Undeath Immunity" as an ability for werewolves, adding it to the specific creatures you mention, or at least a few of them where it makes most sense, would solve all the ghoul problems forever. For Djinn particularly though, it's probably better to teach them to always use Magic Immunity when fighting against ghouls. I'm still very surprised they don't do it considering the entire stack uses a magical ranged attack. What do they cast instead?

- why would you ever split your ghoul force?

I didn't split them - I only had 3 of them ready when I sent them there. Sure I summoned more meanwhile and had another 3 by the time they arrived but you aren't trying to suggest I wait 10 turns for them to arrive as well when I'm already slower than usual...with a strategy that is trying to be faster.

If doesn't matter what they are, attack them when they're weak (6 ghouls vs 2 naga or 2 sprites or 4 halberdiers, etc) You'll collect a 9 stack of undead very quickly.

Yeah but why is it better to use the expensive ghouls instead of a single zombie with cloak of fear? That bunch of crap will be convertable using the zombie at least half the time. The High Men you mention as good targets especially, barbarians likewise, these two have so low resist they can't even hurt the zombie in theory. But as long as it's below halberdier tier, pretty much everything with medium resistance works. btw I found that halberdier tier things are a problem for ghouls, too. They are far too durable, too much hp, ghouls run out of ammo before killing them if its a larger stack or some have buffs.

@Nelphine
Ignoring the first two games where I wasn't playing very well, in the third game, my 9 buffed ghoul stack LOST to the first AI which had a very weak fortress defended by 4 berserkers, 1 shaman, 1 pikemen, and 3 unequipped, not charmed, not high resistance, not high defense, weak heroes, all of these having no more than 1 level. The AI didn't have mana leak or other spells that are a major threat. I should have steamrolled that battle but not, the ghouls don't have enough ammo to kill a full stack of medicore units, even if buffed. (note melee was impossible - Wall of Fire.)
Units I managed to collect that last game :
Earth Elementals - getting these through poison immunity was a surprise but they backfired on me. They are too slow and can't fight anything, so in the end they only helped my enemies get a lair they failed to clear out. I pretty much see no use for this unit at all if not summoned in combat.
Fire Giant - this was good, but only got 1 of them. Can't really expect more as ghouls die to their attacks.
Giant Spiders - again, had only one. Good unit but kills spiders... even that 1 costed an entire ghoul to raise.
Guadian Spirits - yes, the extra 3 power was nice as I had nodes this game. But that's not a powerful or gamebreaking effect, it's a minor extra.
Hell Hounds - I got 4 of these and they served as garrison, never seeing a battle
Bears - I had like, idk, 2 or 3? They are ok I guess but nothing that special. I can easily summon these myself if I want to...
Nagas - these were good scouts, but they are really hard to kill with ghouls as they appear in large groups. I was able to raise about 6?

Don't think I had any other create than these.

[Bahgtru]

Conclusion -- For me, the problem isn't so much that ghouls are overpowered.. usually, they're not. It's that 1) I can raise Very Rare creatures early in the game as undead,

That's easy to address then. I'm already planning to add "Undeath Immunity" as an ability for werewolves, adding it to the specific creatures you mention, or at least a few of them where it makes most sense, would solve all the ghoul problems forever. For Djinn particularly though, it's probably better to teach them to always use Magic Immunity when fighting against ghouls. I'm still very surprised they don't do it considering  the entire stack uses a magical ranged attack. What do they cast instead?

I've had them cast it when I'm not with a hero. Bye bye ghoul stack. I suspect that the presence of a hero overrides that as it's a juicy target, especially when the strategic strength calculation makes the AI consider it a losing battle and go for maximum damage, then they aim at the hero with all they have. Which you probably don't want to change...

Undeath immunity on any creature would be a major ghoul nerf, the only reason to have them rather then just using zombies is the possibility to raise powerful units early when you're so lucky as to find a doable one - if you remove the few of them that's game over. I don't think that it's even necessary on WWs as they can have bloodlust which already makes them immune, and against death spellbook wizards it should be prioritised which would solve the minor issue.