Test games played

[Nelphine]

Right but we're still discussing two things.

You're discussing how effective a strategy it is for winning.

I'm (and others to a lesser extent) are discussing the ability to create undead.

Creating undead is FUN. We want to do that. Ignore trying to win. Give yourself a game where you've already won, and then figure out the best way to make undead.

That's where the ghouls come in.

THEN after reaching that conclusion, figure out how to win with it, based on the constraint of creating as many undead as possible.

[Seravy]

Eh.. if it's not about winning then that isn't really related to them being overpowered or anything.
Yes, ghouls are the most fun way to create undead - if it doesn't lose your game for you - but that's hardly an argument for it being better than other spells or higher tier spells.
More importantly, we don't make game balanced decisions based on an already won game state, ever. That makes no sense.
So I don't really get your problem. You enjoy using ghouls more than other units? Good for you, use them. We still prefer our demon lords, wraiths, zombie mastery, death knights and whatever, but this is a personal preference discussion, not a game balance one.

...but if it's not an already won game then ghouls are the least efficient and reliable way to make undead, in my opinion. Convenience and fun doesn't equal effectiveness.

We better end this, it leads to nowhere. I don't want to hear another word about ghouls anymore. (unless it's in the context of black sleep, which we still need to decide now that we have the new information on what we are doing to wolves, but then please discuss it in the black sleep+zombies thread.)

[Nelphine]

No the problem it becomes about winning.

I want to play an undead creation themed game. I look at the options and realize ghouls as the best. However ghouls have problems, so I start to look for ways around those. Then I realize I can get djinn and hydra, and so I do that, in 1404, and win.

The problem is that 100% undead creation either requires us to put arbitrary limits on what undead you can create or it allows for potential abuse. That's why we don't give it to higher tier death units.

But that means if I want to play undead creation (which is supposed to be a core theme) then nothing past common assists in that - anything past common may permit undead creation, but it's worse than what is available at common (and even if you removed it from ghouls, or if I'm wrong about ghouls, zombies are still common!). So to play undead creation, I literally don't need any death spells past common.

So if i take 2 books of death and 8 of nature... I can play a core death game. (End every battle with summon zombie.) I'm playing primary death?  That makes no sense.

[Seravy]

I look at the options and realize ghouls as the best.

They aren't. I've presented enough proof, I'm resting my case.

Then I realize I can get djinn and hydra, and so I do that, in 1404, and win.

...or you don't find any and lose.
We already decided to prevent djinn by improving the AI anyway.
How often do you find a lone hydra in a lair?
...and don't forget we already reduced the frequency of hydras in lairs quite significantly, in an update not that long ago.

[Seravy]

Started the next game :

https://youtu.be/z6Ms9kcFp7Y

9 Life, 2 Chaos, Alchemy, Nomads.

[Seravy]

Part 2 : https://youtu.be/Sswqdy-RHBo

[robinh3123]

so I think picking up Archmage or Cult Leader instead of one of your books, or even Astrologer instead of 2 of them, woulda really helped you.

Yea I could do that but playing for 6 hours to find out "Hey I didn't get Armageddon which I wanted to test" kinda sucks. If anything I probably would have taken Mana Focusing (that's pretty much double the gargoyles or whatever else in the early game) or Runemaster (which is very important to keep the global spells in play, as everyone loves to dispel those)
I usually can't afford to build religious buildings until, like, very late, as I need to focus on sage's guilds, wizard's guilds and amplifying towers for the early armageddon, so cult leader is not helping much.
Alchemy on the other hand, earlier unit production in any city, plus the ability to make mana easily from gold in the early game...maybe paired with archmage, yeah. But 8 books is only 60% chance to have armageddon.
Slingers...yeah they are amazing, but when I tried that, lots of nightstalkers said no, don't do it. I suppose I can try again if I find enemies without death books. Or Sorcery...because guardian wind...or chaos because warp wood. Ouch.

Too bad I will be busy improving combat AI tomorrow and possibly even the day after so I most likely can't play more games until I finish that. I decided to try a long shot and replace the entire old combat spell AI with a new one I can easily recompile and insert. - if it works a lot of additional detail can be added because it'll be less wasteful on space than the original code, and easy to edit too.

I definitely want to try 8 books with some more retorts, and I also want to try another race. Research bonus from halflings is great but...the price of having poor selection of units available in most of my cities is too much. Any enemy capable of countering slingers and magicians is pretty much "you lose" with them. I wonder if halfling halberdiers with flame blade and chaos channels are any good...not for nightstalkers I guess, not enough resistance. Nor trolls...too tough.

It's easy to know if you have Armageddon or not。。。  1） save the game, 2) press ALT-PWR on magic window,  3) all spells are then already researched (and reveled.)  4) After browse through the spell list, reload the games.

Sound like a cheat?   OK, No use ALT-PWR, but just browse to those garbled text of not-yet-researched list of spells.   Those strange alphabets have a one-to-one mapping to English's 26 letters.  Pretty easy to decrypt those garbled text.

[Bahgtru]

Yeh, I recognise the vowels by heart by now... ¬.¬'

[Seravy]

Part 3 :
https://youtu.be/lFPkL8TUDeI

I foresee a difficult and quite epic game.

[robinh3123]

Today's first game :
5 Chaos+5 Life, Runemaster. High Elf.

Stared on a large continent, Scouted early with hell hounds. Only one enemy wizard was on the continent, playing the same books as me. However, Militarist with barbarians, so peace is impossible.
There was a pretty decent size klackon city next to his capital, which I was able to get using a single hell hound and a fire elemental summoned in combat. Made a few swordmen, summoned more hounds. When the capital was poorly defended, only 3 hell hounds, I attacked. Used 5 hounds and a swordsmen, the rest didn't make it there in time. Lost the battle : I forgot about the wall of fire. My hero arrived next turn and I was able to eliminate the wizard anyway. Meanwhile my settler was waiting to be able to build my first new city, as a random lizardmen outpost got planted next to my capital. I immediately went to destroy that after the other wizard was gone. Managed to get rid of it easily...then, surprise, 9 stack of doom comes from the sea in the opposite direction and game over. While the stack didn't contain much lizardmen units (it was 2 heroes, 4 sprites and 3 lizardmen), the race managed to make itself a nuisance again, as it beat me to the spot close to my capital despite starting on the exact opposite half of the world. Ultimately it was my mistake to attack, considering the large size of the continent I was on, I should have expected more significant enemy presence - revealing the map after losing make it obvious this continent was over 50% of the entire landmass on Arcanus. Seeing only one outpost mislead me into thinking I'm at a safe distance...

The game was recorded and uploaded as well : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5k48OCx...e=youtu.be

Please remember to post the difficulty level...