Barbarian race discussion

[Nelphine]

You're not required to pick alchemy. That's why bezerkers have +1 to hit. Yes I'm one shotting sky drakes - bit that means without all those buffs you still crush expected opponents. Personally, I think warlord is far more mandatory, to start with the extra HP.

And honestly, gnolls are much worse than barbarians, in terms of causing the human to lose. To use gnolls, you need a way to deal with fliers, so 2 realms we out, and if you miss 1 spell in 2 other realms they're out. You need to be able to use wolf riders effectively early. You need to get economy buildings without advanced production buildings. The unplayable area for them is to me, much larger than with barbarians.

[Seravy]

idk maybe I'm not the right person to test this race. Or maybe I'm just too pissed at them for wasting a perfect map. But I'm not really seeing them being all that great... If 5 berserkers can't survive the second turn against such a medicorely defended city, why bother?
I rewatched the recording. 3 ghouls, 2 horsebowmen, 4 (nomad) swordsmen. That's the "army" that killed my 5 berserkers (each having resist magic) without even having a chance to reach them. Even if I had 9 I most likely would have lost them all - the defenders were moving backwards. I could have killed the 4 swordsmen and probably that's all. How are these the amazing units that are worth sacrificing all that economy for? An army of 3 Gargoyles can conquer a city like this, geez.
But even if I bring 9 berserkers and win, how is a tiny nomad city worth losing 6-8 berserkers each buffed by resist magic? Even if they are cheap to produce they aren't THAT cheap.

[Nelphine]

Right, so.. 500 production and 125 mana against 200 production and 264 mana. That means that 'pathetic' city actually outweighed your invasion force. (139 mana is certainly worth more than 300 production.)


Plus, you probably didn't use elite bezerkers? Why would you attack with bezerkers that aren't elite? Or at the very least, veteran. But realistically, elite. You need the extra hp on 6 figures to be better than other options.

You don't have elite bezerkers? Treasure hunt. Those 5 bezerkers can crush all kinds of neutrals. But unless it's literally your first stack, I don't remember the last time I fought with less than 8 bezerkers. Make them en masse, and throw them at things like lemmings. That's why you need at least half a dozen cities. You never stop building them, because you never have enough.

Treasure hunt, get experience.

[Seravy]

Elite berserkers don't grow on a tree. Only Life or Warlord can make them.

I'm pretty sure that battle would have been a loss with full 9 berserkers. 5 were only enough to die to the first two turns of missile attacks, 2 more of those were still coming. Each turn killed 2 of them plus I lost 1 extra to spells. All the units were moving backwards, no walls, so at least the 3rd ranged attack from all but swordsmen would have still hit with full force. That's enough to bring the 9 stack down to 2, and those last 2 still have to face the entire enemy army which has ammo left.

This isn't about costs. It's about Berserkers being unable to conquer cities guarded by common summons and non-FG normal units. A higher tier unit which is supposed to be outstanding, losing to lower tier units anyway. 

With 3 defense, there is no way a berserker will live through enough battles, neutral or not, to reach Elite. Not without Life magic.

Make them en masse, and throw them at things like lemmings. That's why you need at least half a dozen cities.

I can't cast that much resist magic. Remember Barbarian cities don't produce magic power to raise my skill. I could buff one a turn only and while I do expect that to go up to 2 and eventually 3, that's about as far as it goes for the timeframe where berserkers are my strategy.
More importantly, wouldn't it be more effective to throw units that actually have a higher survival rate? Like orc hordes? I understand I can let 150 of my berserkers die to conquer a map and it "only" costs 15000 production but isn't it far better to let 50 orc hordes die that cost 3750 only? I can use the difference to buy the armorer's guilds and even have leftovers plus a race that has a better economy. (and yes, the hordes will have a better survival rate. They have large shield and negate first strike and slightly higher base armor, while almost the same hp. No thrown? Doesn't matter. Retaliation isn't what kills my units, ranged attacks is.)
So what I don't understand is, if I'm using units that cost 100 but have double-triple the usual losses then where is the benefit of using the cheap units? I feel the quantity of losses far outranks the "discount" of the unit.
In fact, halberdiers are equal - they are about 25-30% less durable but also cost 40% less to build - and that's just the baseline, as halberdiers come from races with various benefits too.
So I could pick klackons, have a much stronger magic economy, increased production and growth rate, and cheaper to produce but equally durable units to conquer with (klackon halberdiers get +2 armor so overall they are 3 armor higher than berserkers, enough to make up for missing the 1 higher hp.). AI typically defends everything using ranged units - the melee superiority of berserkers does't really do anything and thus isn't relevant.

I think barbarians are strictly inferior to most races, especially klackons and orcs, for the tactic you describe, if played without Life magic.What can a berserker do that a klackon halberdier or stag beetle cannot?

[Bahgtru]

What can a berserker do that a klackon halberdier or stag beetle cannot?

Treasure hunt and explore almost like a draconian

[Seravy]

Yeah but you don't need those for sorcery and chaos, those realms are good enough at it on their own - assuming they get magic power. Any lair can be beaten by some spearmen and enough lighting bolts/psionic blasts/doom bolts/magic vortexes/phantom warriors, etc. and nagas explore faster than barbarians do.

[zitro1987]

I agree that berserkers appear inferior to other races. It is also among the least interesting to play due to lack of flexibility to buildings.
*The reliance on alchemy for magic weapons continues to be an issue. Race is horrible without the +1 to hit.
*A military race without armorer's guild? A super-cavalry unit for a mobile high-stat/thrown unit should take care of later-game weaknesses. Or a 3-4 move unit with thrown called cyclops? Or a unit with built-in immolation?

I think a better alternative is for barbarian towns not to allow both amplifying towers (major downside), wizard's guild, builder's hall, and a series of similar-type economy buildings.

The low-tier units could use a +1 movement to allow their aggressive stats (thrown) to be worth using against ranged units. Maybe the +1 to hit could also apply to all, not just berserkers. Despite these unit buffs, units are most likely inferior to most myrran race units despite this being a military town.

Summary: +1 move and/or +1 to hit to basic units, armorer guild unit (fewer figures to avoid mega-buff problems), a few more allowable buildings.

[Nelphine]

Look, barbarians are all about potential.

You start playing, you realize you're going to lose units. You therefore need to economize. You need to have units that are cheap but can get the job done.

Through some testing, what I came to find was that a until needed 20 hit points to really do this. Too many effects ignore armor or large shield (like doom bolt, lightning bolt, storm giants, etc), so simply having high armor isn't enough - you need 20 hit points.

So, the first, cheapest unit I found, was elite lizardmen halberdiers. I also used beastmen halberdiers to great effect. 7 attack 6 armor 4 HP. This was the minimum that worked. Beastmen could easily be 9 attack 7 armor 4 HP. That worked so much better - the offense was a noticeable improvement.

But halberdiers don't hit air, so you have to build your whole strategy around that. Flight, chaos channels, powerful combat magic.

But all of those things came with downsides: specifically, summoning spells. Why do you want summoning spells, IF you're going for cheap units?
And those summons.. they weren't better than attack 10 armor 8 HP 4 figures 6 units. So all of those summons were useless.

But life has good summons, that mattered and SUPPORT city troops - they don't replace city troops, nor do they get replaced when you have better units - they always matter. But life couldn't hit air. 

So can we make draconians work? No. Until lionheart, their HP are just too low, and they get chewed up by various things.

Ok, drop myrran, and.. barbarians. They can hit air. Holy armor means bezerkers hit 9 melee 7 armor 4 HP. This is the magic line where units are better than uncommon summons. Plus they move 3 instead of 2, and life makes that 4 (if you want to spend extra mana). And they have thrown 5 on top of that to hit air.

It's all about cheapest uncommon tier unit.

100 production and 35 (now 40) mana, now gets a melee 9, thrown 5, +2 to hit, armor 7 HP 4 figure 6 unit. 

That's the cheapest uncommon tier unit you can get that hits air.

You can play other realms, but you lose holy armor. So you need warlord for the eventual armor 6, and even that is back to non life lizardmen halberdier level - which means, I could use it to beat impossible, back in version 2.x. it's doable, but not easy. Which sounds like expert level.

So, yes, barbarians should be playable with any realm, but warlord is practically mandatory. Alchemy is a really obvious boost, but not as mandatory - bezerkers have amazing offense, so you need to use your picks to increase their defense.

But more importantly - and this goes back to my playstyle bias - why are you wasting time with ANY city troops if you're going for summons? And if you're not going for summons, WHY are you playing anyvrealm but life? Sorcery at least is somewhat ok - only 2 summons in the first two tiers (but unlike life, where both summons hugely assist city troops, sorcery summons only replace city troops, so they're wasted) - but any other realm has at least 4 summons in the first two tiers, and that's too much. Why are you using ANY city troops seriously, when 25% of your spells completely obsolete city troops?

In a game about magic, it should be all about magic! And if you're using city troops when you have summons, then you're wasting way too much of that precious invaluable all important magic.

(If I play death, chaos, or nature, I never use city troops, no matter what I'm doing. I have no interest in wasting 25% of my spells.)

[Seravy]

Through some testing, what I came to find was that a until needed 20 hit points to really do this.

Berserkers have 18.  "close enough" I would say if it was't the low armor which makes them work more like a unit that has 16 or less.

Too many effects ignore armor or large shield (like doom bolt, lightning bolt, storm giants, etc)

By the time those are relevant, you're supposed to win battles using your rare spells anyway. Lighting Bolt included, it is earlier but the AI still needs rare tier casting skill to use it enough times to cause relevant damage to a 9 stack of anything. Doesn't really matter either way though - barbarians are supposed to be obsolete by this phase either way. They are meant to conquer late game cities in the common and uncommon phase, then win by using that.

But halberdiers don't hit air, so you have to build your whole strategy around that. Flight, chaos channels, powerful combat magic.

Web costs 2 Nature. Chaos Channels and Flight cost 5 of their respective realms. We aren't discussing Life - barbarians work fine with that. So only Death is relevant here.
But flying units aren't that common. You will only really encounter 1-2 of them per city conquest battle which  you can eliminate using ranged units or combat spells. So pretty much everything except the "one per enemy per 50 turns" doomstack is not a problem. The doomstack sneezes at halberdiers and they all die anyway so it's also not relevant.

But all of those things came with downsides: specifically, summoning spells. Why do you want summoning spells, IF you're going for cheap units?

To kill the things halberdiers can't. But maybe you don't want summoning spells. This has no relevance whatsoever, the magic you are not getting out of barbarians will be missing even if you were not using it for summoning. You still need skill and research even if you don't summon a single thing.

why are you wasting time with ANY city troops if you're going for summons? And if you're not going for summons, WHY are you playing anyvrealm but life?

Ok this is a problem. Seriously, if you have to ask this, it's a problem. 75% of the spells in the game are not summons, asking this question does show you have some very weird bias indeed.
In just that one pair of realms, Chaos/Sorcery which I tried playing this game, you can go the combat spells route with Chaneller, you can go the peaceful route with SoM and Aura of Majesty and Charismatic, and you can go for "my globals win the game" through Runemaster.
Or you can go heroes with Artificer, yes it sounds very odd for these realms but it does work to some extent - you have invisible heroes with pandora's box and powerful armor ignoring direct damage so the heroes will be able to power up well in lairs and nodes, and heroes with Soul Link thanks to Chaos Channels, being able to cast a whole bunch of flame strikes or doom bolts on turn 1 is a lot of fun. You even have Inner Fire so your early heroes are immune to fire bolt and cold bolt.

All of these tactics are late game - you need the normal units to get yourself through the common and uncommon phase where spells might not be effective. But even if you don't NEED the normal units, using the same summon every game is boring, so unless that summon is your main strategy, you might decide not to use them.

Furthermore, your summoning capacity is limited. Obsolete you say, yes, but who cares? They aren't going to be my top doomstack or anything. They are just "continental army #23, division 2" who are there to make sure that random pop 9 city doesn't get conquered by the enemy spearmen and war bears. Or were only produced to kill that nearby lair specifically before they retire.
Summoning capacity doesn't increase linearly - I rather have X^2 more of those not so great normal units immediately, than X more uncommon creatures per turn because at a larger X the number of turns for the two to become equal is too high. For 4400 I can buy 37 halberdiers for example...or gain 20 casting skill which buys me 1/8 of a Shadow Demon per turn. Even if I say "1 shadow demon is as good as 6 halberdiers", it still takes 36 turns to break even - so if I were to actually use these armies any earlier than that, and you bet I do otherwise I'd be buying economy buildings, then the halberdiers are the better deal.
More importantly, hammers don't convert to casting skill that nicely - trough trade goods and alchemy you lose 75% overall and even then that's mana crystals not power so it doesn't really work without limits. So the hammers would need to be used on magic power buildings - which is nice but they produce the magic power per turn and generally have high, 50ish turn ROIs. Compared to that, producing any unit that will be used to conquer a target you don't already have capacity to conquer and hold, will be a better investment.

...haven't we had this discussion before? arrgh. I need more brains.

[Nelphine]

First point: you need 20 hit points. That means bezerkers before elite, elite halbediers for races without a HP bonus, magicians, etc, do not have enough hp.

That's why I consider warlord mandatory. If the unit doesn't have 20 HP, it's not worth building.

Second: yes we've had this discussion before . We have completely different playstyles. 

Third: 75% of spells isn't good enough. Why would I want to spend hundreds (at common) to thousands (at uncommon) researching summons when I'm intending to use city troops for all serious tasks [and despite how you play, garrisons are meaningless for me]. If I AM going to spend that research, then why would I dilute it by using city troops that are noticeably weaker?

Particularly when I have the option of playing a realm that doesn't have that built in research penalty? (Whether life, where all the spells work, or sorcery where it's only 10% of my spells instead of 25%+ in the other 3 realms.)

Bezerkers out of the box obsolete hell hounds and war bears and skeletons. Elite bezerkers with alchemy obsolete werewolves, great lizards, chimera, sprites, fire giants, naga and in some cases giant spiders, ghouls, shadow demons, gargoyles and water elementals. (Those some cases are lesser or greater, but in some cases the bezerkers will never replace them.)

So if I research any of those, and then build bezerkers, those bezerkers will make that research completely useless in some cases. That's way way too heavy a cost in power that could have been used for something else. So if I'm going to use those summons, I'm not going to use bezerkers. I'm going to use a different race.

Right now, bezerkers are why you take barbarians, so no, you can't play barbarians and those realms - but the biggest reason is the research penalty. I don't need both city units and summons that do the same thing. (And even if you ignore all the sometimes cases, which is totally valid, that's still too big a penalty - at least one uncommon spell - from nature, death, and chaos.)