Suikoden variants

[Herman Gigglethorpe]

Suikoden 1 Minimal Characters Variant Postscript:  What's the Point of This Challenge, Anyway?


Those who haven't played Suikoden may wonder what the deal with this playthrough is.  Sometimes I think about that too.


Most of the time, a minimal characters challenge really isn't that different from a regular run through the game.  Suikoden 1 is about a 15 hour game if you aren't going for all the Stars of Destiny.  So many characters either join automatically or are mandatory for specific parts.  (e.g. Gremio, Flik, Cleo, Viktor)  There simply isn't enough time or space to experiment with all the characters even in a minimalist playthrough. 

The hero (BOTCHAN) alone can destroy individual enemies with Deadly Fingertips, or clear a random encounter in one move with Hell near the end.  Spellcasters such as Alen, Grenseal, and Luc can deal with bosses.


The lack of certain features in your castle is a more substantial difference.  Optional characters unlock several time-saving options such as an elevator, teleportation, an item vault, and shops containing items from towns you've visited.  In a 100% playthrough, you can also gain massive amounts of money by gambling at the castle.  Weapons can only be sharpened to the maximum level with a special optional blacksmith.  Not that you really need endgame equipment because magic is more powerful than in many Japanese RPGs.


War battles are the parts where having fewer characters hurts.  The only Magic attack that you get automatically is Luc, and even that's not at full power without the other two characters in his unit.  Archers are limited too.  Charge works fine because so many Charge characters join automatically.  You don't have all the Thieves and Ninjas either, so you can't spy on the enemy every turn.  The low troop numbers in a minimalist playthrough turn war battles into trial and error contests, so be sure to save often if you're trying this sort of challenge.


I had fun with this variant, though it was different than what I had expected.  Suikoden 2 will have different challenge restrictions for sure.  The one I have in mind may surprise you.  Or maybe not if you look at the character list and have read my Chrono Cross thread. . .

[T-hawk]

I read along with it, Suikoden is the one game from your writeups I've actually played through, although it was 20 years ago now. Yeah I can see where minimalist characters isn't very minimal at all. And yeah I remember the 5th-tier magic spells just annihilating everything once you knew how the rune combos work.

[Herman Gigglethorpe]

I read along with it, Suikoden is the one game from your writeups I've actually played through, although it was 20 years ago now.  Yeah I can see where minimalist characters isn't very minimal at all.  And yeah I remember the 5th-tier magic spells just annihilating everything once you knew how the rune combos work.

I don't think I ever used Unite Magic in this Suikoden 1 playthrough.  Was there some option on the battle menu I was missing?  Either way, regular magic is enough to overpower the bosses.

The Suikoden 2 playthrough has begun.  I've taken some notes in Microsoft Word, but there might not be a formal update for a bit.  The challenge is the Hero + Squirrel Squad.  There are 5 squirrels you can recruit in Suikoden 2, and they're supposedly weak gimmick characters.  Once I can get all 5 squirrels, those will be the only party members other than the protagonist and other forced characters.  (Though I'll have to use some optional Stars of Destiny at first to unlock 4 of the squirrels in the first place. . .)

So far, Suikoden 2 plays like an upgraded version of the first game, so you shouldn't be too confused if you're familiar with Suikoden 1.  They say the war battles are much different in the sequel, though.


Suikoden 2's hero doesn't have the Soul Eater, so he can't instantly kill every random battle.  His signature Rune seems to be more about healing.

[T-hawk]

IIRC (it's been 20 years), there's no direct command to combine magic spells. It happens automatically if you have two characters cast compatible spells on the same round. I remember one that would deal 800 or so damage while also full-healing the party, and you really didn't need to do anything besides that every round.

I played Suikoden 2 a little ways in but lost interest for other things instead (when I got a Dreamcast.)

[Herman Gigglethorpe]

Suikoden 2 Squirrel Squad Part 1:  Bright-Eyed and Bushy-Tailed


Five squirrels are recruitable in Suikoden 2.  The variant will involve using them as the battle party as much as possible, though that won't be until well into the game.


Suikoden 2 has many advances over Suikoden 1.  The story is more interesting, the graphics look like a PSX game instead of a late Super Nintendo release, the towns are more varied, and the inventory system is much less restrictive.  (Healing items are equipped like armor, and there's a party inventory for item management out of battle.)  However, the game also overdoes the cutscenes somewhat, like some PSX RPGs.


A lot happened in the first few hours, so I'll try to sum it up quickly.  Suikoden 2 takes place years after Suikoden 1, but in a neighboring region rather than the Lake Toran area.  Many characters from the first game like Viktor, Flik, and Leknaat reappear and have significant roles in the story.


Prince Luca Blight of Highland hated the City-State of Jowston, so he staged a false flag attack on his own troops to start a war.  The main characters SQUIRREL and Jowy were victims of this plot and were later branded as anti-Highland spies.  Over the first part of the game, the protagonists recruited many characters, only to see Luca Blight burn down the towns of Toto and Ryube.  Viktor and Flik commanded a Mercenary Fort allied to Jowston, but they weren't strong enough to prevent Luca Blight from capturing it.  The two Suikoden 1 characters burned the fort with Fire Spears to allow the mercenaries to escape.  Jowy and SQUIRREL received the two halves of the Rune of the Beginning from Leknaat after a long cutscene with black text on a white background.  Now, they're about to look for treasure so they can get an entry permit to the city of Muse.


The first part of the game was story-heavy and didn't allow much room for customization.  Jowy and SQUIRREL's Unite attack could hit all enemies and usually wiped out weaker random encounters in one move.  However, enemies in general were stronger than in the first game, and bosses even more so.


North Swallow Pass was the first major dungeon.  Besides Jowy and SQUIRREL, the carnival performers Bolgan, Rina, and Eilie made up the party.  Bolgan had a special Fire Breath Rune that would make him "Unbalanced" for a turn after using it.  Bolgan, Rina, and Eilie's fire-breathing Circus Attack Unite had a similar effect, but was more powerful.  One new feature of Suikoden 2 was the consumable spell card, an item that acted like its equivalent Rune spell.



The Mist Monster was surprisingly challenging for a first boss.  Its beast form could hit the front row for enough physical damage to send Jowy and SQUIRREL into critical health, while the woman form could cast a lightning spell on the whole party.  Many Medicines were needed to win this one.  Several spell cards such as Flaming Arrows and Angry Blow dealt more damage than other moves, but they didn't seem to be as overpowering as Suikoden 1 magic.  Rina's Fire Rune provided a few more spell charges.


Kyaro Village was Jowy and SQUIRREL's hometown.  Mukumuku, the first squirrel, joined the party after I checked a particular tree 3 times.  The others won't join until much later.  Mukumuku had seemingly high stats, but he could never have equipment, not even Medicines.  (!)  He could at least have a Fire Rune, so I made sure to buy him one at some point.



SQUIRREL, Jowy, Mukumuku, and Millie went on a brief sidequest to retrieve Millie's "pet" Bonaparte.  This must have been some monster from a Lovecraft story instead of anything she should have been playing with.  It could swallow party members and deal enough damage to knock Mukumuku unconscious in one hit.  Nothing could revive him during the fight, so all I could do was have the survivors use physical attacks and occasionally a Flaming Arrows spell card.

The reason I needed so many optional characters was that the remaining squirrels would only join when the "Castle Level" was high enough.  Recruiting Stars of Destiny was the way to do this.


Flik had a short Duel with Squirrel to test his strength.  It only lasted two turns.  I used Defend against his Wild Attack, and Attack on the second round against his Defend.  Duels work exactly as they do in Suikoden 1.  If you know what the dialogue hints are (or look at GameFAQS), it's easy.


A war battle happened some time afterwards.  This was more of a tutorial than a serious match, because the first round ended automatically and the second round was unwinnable.  War battles aren't the elaborate Rock Paper Scissors matches that they were in Suikoden 1.  Instead, units move around on a grid and attack each other in a similar fashion to Fire Emblem, Advance Wars, or Shining Force.  Most units were AI controlled except for RODENT Company with Jowy and SQUIRREL.


After the fort fell, Jowy and SQUIRREL defeated a few Highland soldiers with their Unite and tried to rescue a little girl from Luca Blight.  An escape FMV scene played and it was time to go to Muse.  Hanna, Gengen, and Nanami forced their way into the group for the next sequence.



Levels and Equipment

Hanna level 6 (S range)

Rune:  None
Spells:  None
Weapon:  Blade level 3
Helmet:  Leather Hat
Armor:  Leather Coat
Shield:  Steel Shield
Other1:  Medicine
Other2:  Leather Cape


SQUIRREL level 12 (M range)

Rune:  Bright Shield
Spells:  Great Blessing (70 HP healing for everyone), Shining Light (130 damage to all opponents)
Weapon:  Twin Fang level 3
Helmet:  Bandana
Armor:  Brass Armor
Other1:  Medicine
Other2:  Gloves
Other3:  Boots


Gengen level 6 (S range)

Rune:  None
Spells:  None
Weapon:  Sword level 3
Helmet:  Leather Hat
Armor:  Leather Coat
Shield:  Wooden Shield
Other1:  Cape
Other2:  Boots
Other3:  Medicine


Jowy level 11

Rune:  Black Sword
Spells:  Flash Judgment (120 damage to 1 opponent), Twinkling Blade (100 damage to all, 30% instant death)
Weapon:  Star Staff level 3
Helmet:  Feathered Hat
Armor:  Tunic
Other1:  Boots
Other2:  Medicine
Other3:  Medicine


Nanami level 7

Rune:  None
Spells:  None
Weapon:  Flower Rod level 2
Helmet:  Feathered Hat
Armor:  Tunic
Other1:  Medicine
Other2:  Gloves
Other3:  Wooden Shoes


Mukumuku level 10

Rune:  Fire
Spells:  Flaming Arrows (60 damage to all opponents)
Equipment:  Squirrels don't have weapons, armor, or healing items!

[Jowy]

Good luck on the challenge!

It's too bad the other squirrels require a higher castle level. Otherwise you could recruit them very early by pushing the Matilda gate and traveling all the way to Greenhill as soon as you get through Toto village.

I tried the low recruit run for Suikoden 2 many years ago. There are some cool things you can do, like skip recruiting during the recruiting sequence for Viktor's fort by exiting and entering towns. I stopped when it was time to not-recruit Gilbert in the war battle where you meet him.

[Herman Gigglethorpe]

Good luck on the challenge!

It's too bad the other squirrels require a higher castle level. Otherwise you could recruit them very early by pushing the Matilda gate and traveling all the way to Greenhill as soon as you get through Toto village.

I tried the low recruit run for Suikoden 2 many years ago. There are some cool things you can do, like skip recruiting during the recruiting sequence for Viktor's fort by exiting and entering towns. I stopped when it was time to not-recruit Gilbert in the war battle where you meet him.

The squirrels who aren't Stars of Destiny require Castle Level 2 and an alliance with Two Rivers according to the Suikosource recruitment guide.


Since your username is Jowy, I have to say that I like the character with the same name.  Good thing too, since he's required in the early game.  His Unite with SQUIRREL is carrying me through the random battles so far.

(Is Jowy supposed to be pronounced like the name "Joey", or is it "ow" as in "power"?)

[Herman Gigglethorpe]

Suikoden 2 Squirrel Squad Part 2:  Mukumuku Flunked Out of Hogwarts

Plot So Far:  Alex from the inn near Muse took SQUIRREL's team to the Sindar Ruins to look for treasure.  In case the Tolkien reference was lost on anyone, the language on the tablets was "Sindarin".  There was already a Dune reference in Jowy's last name of Atreides.  The treasure turned out to be a "healing herb" that Alex used to cure his wife who had come down with a sudden illness.


Nanami tried to sneak into Muse again, but she didn't have Viktor's "Scholteheim Reinbach" alias, so she got the party thrown in jail instead.  Viktor broke them out.  Jowston's first assignment was to sneak into the Highland camp and learn how long their provisions would hold out.  Rowd, the captain who had betrayed Jowy and SQUIRREL at the beginning recognized them.  Jowy managed to escape capture with the Black Sword Rune.


The Highland Army attacked Muse in a war battle for a while, then retreated.  Gilbert the mercenary changed sides from Highland to Jowston, but since his unit was defeated in battle I have no way of confirming that he survived.  (He probably did.)


Gameplay

-The Sindar Ruins was tougher than previous areas.  Several monsters could take 2 or 3 rounds to kill, especially the fire-breathing Salamanders.  Nightmare playing cards randomly picked a level 1 elemental spell, such as Kindness Drops, Flaming Arrows, and Wind of Sleep.  Mr. Venus, contrary to its name, was a crescent moon enemy that had high HP and a sort of beam attack that hit multiple characters.


Groups of enemies were typically dealt with by regular attacks and the SQUIRREL/Jowy Unite.  The SQUIRREL/Nanami Unite helped kill sturdy single targets like Mr. Venus, but it left Nanami Unbalanced after it was used.  Magic was mostly conserved for the boss.  It took two trips to get through the dungeon because there were so many random battles.  Backtracking was required to get several items to solve lock and key puzzles too.


The boss of the area was the reptilian Double Head.  Contrary to its name, it was treated as a single enemy, unlike the Golden Hydra from Suikoden 1.  Mukumuku fell down on the job on Round 1 because his Fire Wall spell backfired.  It damaged the whole party for more HP than the squirrel had.  This happened because Mukumuku had an E rank in Fire, which provided 20% more damage at the risk of recoil damage.  Never rely on a squirrel.    


As for the other characters, Hanna used Flaming Arrows cards, SQUIRREL cast Shining Light, Gengen used a Fire Wall card, Nanami used an Angry Blow card, and Jowy cast Flash Judgment.  SQUIRREL sometimes healed the party with Great Blessing.  SQUIRREL/Nanami's Family ATK Unite dealt around 200 damage.  A Flash Judgment finished off the reptile.


Double Head often used a fire pillar attack that hit the whole party for maybe 30-50 damage.  It was nothing that Shining Light couldn't heal.  The boss didn't seem to have an elemental weakness or resistance.


On the spying mission in the Highland Camp, there were a few rough encounters with Killer Rabbits.  These axe wielding bunnies nearly killed the party in the first fight.  My characters leveled up to 18 for their trouble.  I made sure to go back to Muse and buy better armor after that!  The Highland Soldiers themselves could be beaten with SQUIRREL/Jowy Unites, or Shining Light when Jowy wasn't available.


The war battle was another glorified cutscene.  So many allied units were AI, and my units could only move 1 space per turn.  Gilbert joined after one of the AI characters attacked him.  

Still no sign of the other squirrels.  This game has a much slower pace than Suikoden 1 because of the high number of cutscenes.  (It wouldn't be a PSX RPG without those and FMVs!)


Levels and Equipment

SQUIRREL level 20

Rune:  Bright Shield
Spells:  Great Blessing, Shining Light, Battle Oath (restores 300 HP to whole party)
Weapon:  Twin Fang level 4
Helmet:  Pointed Hat
Armor:  Brass Armor
Other1:  Medicine
Other2:  Gloves
Other3:  Boots


Jowy level 20

Rune:  Black Sword
Spells:  Flash Judgment, Twinkling Blade, Piercing One (700 damage to one opponent)
Weapon:  Star Staff level 4
Helmet:  Circuret (Engrish typo for Circlet?)
Armor:  Chain Mail
Other1:  Boots
Other2:  Medicine
Other3:  Medicine


Nanami level 20

Rune:  Water
Spells:  Kindness Drops (full heal to 1 character), Protect Mist ("Repel Magic for all allies 20%")
Weapon:  Flower Rod level 4
Helmet:  Pointed Hat
Armor:  Leather Coat
Other1:  Medicine
Other2:  Gloves

[Herman Gigglethorpe]

Suikoden 2 Squirrel Squad Part 3:  Too Much Story, Too Few Rodents

Story So Far:  Jowy turned out to be a spy for Highland, and assassinated Annabelle, the leader of Muse.  Highland conquered Muse, forcing the party to flee to the south.  Tai Ho and Yam Koo from Suikoden 1 provided the vessel, but SQUIRREL had to convince him by winning a dice game just like BOTCHAN did in the previous game. 

The city of South Window wanted Viktor to investigate the ruins of North Window.  The latter was Viktor's hometown that he said was destroyed by Neclord prior to Suikoden 1.  The "Neclord" from Suikoden 1 was retroactively an illusion created by the real Neclord's True Rune.  Viktor argued with the Star Dragon Sword and fought it until it agreed to fight vampires once again.  Neclord fled North Window, and the party converted his castle into their Headquarters. 

After defeating Neclord's minion Abomination, it was revealed that South Window surrendered to Highland.  The party had to beg Shu, a student of Mathiu, to be their strategist.  He only agreed to join if they found a coin in the sluice in Radat Town.  Then Solon Jhee of Highland attacked Headquarters, and SQUIRREL won after converting former South Window soldiers to his side. 



Gameplay:  I have to admit that I prefer Suikoden 1's pacing.  The story is better in the sequel, but there are too many cutscenes for my taste.  There wasn't much room for party customization either, because so many characters were forced into the group.


After an unwinnable battle with Neclord, SQUIRREL and friends had to go through a long dungeon called the Cave of Wind.  The party was Viktor/Freed Yamamoto/Kahn/Nanami/SQUIRREL/Eilie.  SQUIRREL/Nanami's Unite helped a lot with individual enemies, though now there was no all-target Jowy Unite for groups.  The Star Dragon Sword could hit two party members for 50-70 damage with a melee attack, or zap everyone with lightning or dark orbs for around 40-60.


SQUIRREL spent much of the fight casting Bright Shield Rune healing spells.  He had a much different role in battle from BOTCHAN's purely offensive magic.  The other party members mostly used their regular physical attacks.  Freed's weapon automatically had a Lightning Rune attached, which dealt extra electric damage after the physical blow.  Occasionally, SQUIRREL/Nanami used their Unite, and Nanami healed other characters with Medicine during her Unbalanced turn.



The game was considerate enough to automatically exit the dungeon after the boss.  Next it was time to go back to North Window and defeat the Abomination.  The climb up the castle reminded me of a similar sequence in Suikoden 1.  The Abomination was an undead enemy, so Kahn's spells dealt extra damage.  Charm Arrow hit for 1202 (!), and even Scolding hit for a respectable 166.  SQUIRREL spent most of the fight healing with his spells.  A Berserk buff from Battle Oath buffed Nanami's physical damage, but didn't restrict her actions like a Final Fantasy Berserk might have.  Freed Yamamoto probably dealt the finishing blow, but too late to save Kahn who had died.


The Abomination itself was a four-legged spider type creature with many zombie heads.  It could jump on the whole party, or breathe for 70-90 damage to everyone.  Its single target melee could hit for 120 and usually targeted Kahn.



After a long story sequence in Radat, there was another glorified cutscene war battle.  All I had to do was move SQUIRREL and his other generic unit to Solon Jhee and attack.  A few turns later, and Highland automatically retreated.  SQUIRREL had officially secured his castle, and Leknaat talked a bit about the Stars of Destiny.  But I still can't get the other squirrels until a little later.  Hopefully there will be enough time for me to use them before the end!


No point in a Levels and Equipment section right now, but the main characters are in the mid 20s level range.

[Herman Gigglethorpe]

Suikoden 2 Squirrel Squad Part 4:  The Beginning of RODENT Company

Story So Far:  SQUIRREL and friends had their money stolen after a Winger named Chaco picked their pockets in Two Rivers.  After pursuing him through a long dungeon, SQUIRREL had to reconcile the humans, Wingers, and Kobolds so they could fend off a Highland attack.  Luca Blight executed Solon Jhee and appointed Jowy to take his place.  Jowy's forces conquered the college town of Greenhill, so SQUIRREL and Nanami had to pose as students to smuggle its leader Teresa out. 


Gameplay:  This section was a bunch of tedious filler.  The Chaco subplot in Two Rivers could have been cut, as well as the unfunny comedy in Greenhill.  Nanami is the kind of character who'd fit in something like Tales of Graces or Recettear rather than a Suikoden title.  (She's obnoxiously perky and is scared of ghosts despite having often fought undead.)  Also, why do Suikoden characters say "unforgivable" so often?  Is this a literal translation of some common Japanese phrase or something?  The obnoxious RPG cliche of the "teardrop" thought bubble appears pretty often in the dialogue too.  People keep telling me Suikoden 2 is the best in the series, but I find it overrated compared to the first game and its far superior pacing.


There were only a few interesting parts as far as the variant was concerned.  To get to Greenhill, I needed a boat, and that meant recruiting either Amada or Tai Ho.  Tai Ho needed to be convinced with yet another dice game, so I went with the option of fighting Amada in another Duel. 


On my first attempt at the Two River sewer dungeon, I took only SQUIRREL and Mukumuku.  They did fine against the random enemies, but the Pest Rat boss had way too much HP for two characters to deal with at a reasonable level.  We'll let this next line speak for itself:

Death Count:  3


I had to bend the variant rules and bring Amada, Rikimaru, Nanami, and Luc to win, and even that resulted in a difficult battle.  The Pest Rat could act twice per round.  I hoped for its melee because there was a chance to dodge it, but it often sent out poison gas or made debris fall from the ceiling.  These all-target attacks put pressure on the party. 


SQUIRREL had to spend many turns healing with Bright Shield spells, and Nanami occasionally supplemented that with Water Rune spells.  Amada and Rikimaru spent all their turns using their Unite, which could deal about 360 damage without any Unbalance issues.  Mukumuku's melee could hit in the 110s range, or get a critical for around 350.  The strongest attack was Luc's The Shredding wind blasts, which hit for over 700.  Most Wind Rune spells were either useless sleep inducers or healing, so when The Shredding ran out, Luc had to use the pathetic Pixie Rune and hit for maybe 23 damage.  SQUIRREL/Nanami's Unite inflicted about 326 damage.


The Pest Rat was a good example of why you shouldn't try a reduced character challenge in this game.  Bosses have too much HP for a small party.  Spells and consumable items are limited.  And there's the usual problem of the diminishing returns experience point system.  (i.e. lower level characters catch up quickly, but once you reach the recommended level for an area, experience gains dry up.)  Attempting to do this fight with only SQUIRREL and Mukumuku would have taken many hours of grinding at best.


The Greenhill sequence was mostly running around activating cutscenes, and hearing dialogue from Nina and Nanami that was supposed to be funny.  The "Reinbach" joke from the first game reappeared, though Flik didn't follow through on it like Viktor and BOTCHAN did.

SQUIRREL, Nanami, Flik, and Mukumuku fought their way past generic Highland soldiers and a variety of plant monsters to rescue Teresa.  Once she was out of Greenhill, I could finally do what I had been waiting for nearly the entire length of the original Suikoden:  catching squirrels!

Mukumuku was in a fixed location in Gyaro, but the others were harder to find.  All 4 of them were in the general Greenhill region, and required empty slots in the party.  Makumaku joined while I was taking Teresa to Headquarters.  Getting Stallion in Radat made the process somewhat easier.  He had a True Holy Rune just like the first game, which allowed SQUIRREL to move faster on the world map.  Stallion's powers also guaranteed a retreat from any random battle.  I don't know exactly how the RNG works in Suikoden 2, but the best results seemed to occur when I went into town to reset the squirrels' spawn location.  After what must have been an hour or more of searching, the Squirrel Squad was ready to take on the forces of Highland.


No Levels and Equipment section this time either.  I had to take a long break after hunting down all those rodents.