Test games played

[Bahgtru]

[...]

That said, Holy Armor might actually be that "too cost effective" spell. It isn't such a big deal by itself, however city walls add 3 defense. +To Def applies to it. So on a unit that has 6 defense already which isn't all that unusual, that unit is 9 defense behind walls, and +To Def makes this 9 defense be as good as if it was 12 instead. That's a big deal. When we changed the spell we also knew being able to cast this in combat for heroes is making them better. So I'm willing to consider making Holy Armor overland only. That is a very big nerf to Life however - it means until Invulnerability, it won't have the ability to raise the defense of units at all. (and btw no other realms can do it either, Life was the only one. Maybe buffing defense in combat below rare tier is simply too powerful? And yes heroism adds defense but it's a big package so it's far more diluted than a simple defense buff and it doesn't work on units that already have levels.)

So for you problematic is holy armor, but heroism does the same [and more - "it's a big package" - but also less - it's limited to low level units - so more or less the same]. 

OK, for me it's not enough but let's try it. No heroism and holy armor in combat then and let's see where that leaves the game. Life is left with holy weapon which means a lot to archers, especially while still at range, and is surely better than what nature has. You also haven't considered holy light and how that makes in-combat heroism/HA better in the post. That should bring a resemblance of balance at least and maybe favour some variety in the garrisons, having some melee to hold the door and some ranged to inflict damage.

On this topic, I've read in the MoM wiki that there's a mechanic that drops to-def by 1 to a unit for every 2 attacks they receive in a turn, including ranged attacks, making it simpler for melee troops to damage them: is this still true in CoM?

[Seravy]

Yes, suppression penalties are still a thing. For this very same reason, the AI always moves their ranged units first. (but there is ofc no guarantees the melee units will attack the same thing, it merely enables the possibility.)

We'll try changing Holy Armor after we seen some proof there is an actual problem with it in the current version but I'll keep the idea in mind. I see a high probability we'll need this change.

Edit : You posted "To Def" but suppression reduces To Hit.

[Bahgtru]

If that video isn't proof enough I have no idea what would it need.

Why holy armor is a problem but not heroism? Because it costs more? That's making it even more of a problem - it does more in the one spell casting per turn that you get.

[zitro1987]

So we may be back at the same issue of 'life has too much armor stacking' with common spells. There are many ways to stop this from happening, so picking a few from below should do the trick.

*Holy armor to replace sanctify and new common spot used for unit enchantment that is not associated with armor.
+1 melee and +1 hp/figure
*Holy armor removed and replaced by a unit enchantment not associated with armor.
+1 melee and +1 hp/figure
*Endurance to provide +1 armor or none at cheaper cost
*Sanctify and holy armor to swap places. (this one is probably a bad idea)

Basically, a unit enchantment at start of game that grants +1 melee and +1hp/figure turns a swordsman to almost halberdier-level. This is the great mass-buff kind of spell that helps early games for life but has little risk of abuse potential.

[Seravy]

One that's made in the current version, not the previous? We already nerfed the unit and did several other things that can completely change the outcome of a new test.
Because Holy Armor grants MORE defense for a LOWER cost and the amount SCALES UP further depending on the target and presence of City Walls. We were talking about cost effectiveness. While one could argue the whole package of Heroism is as good as than Holy Armor despite granting less armor (it's not, it doesn't stack with existing unit levels and you generally use units with levels, even for garrisons, or the units level up on their own if successfully defending the city), it still costs twice as much mana to use. So ultimately it only does half as well as Holy Armor.
Unless you claim Heroism is over twice as good as holy armor which I don't think is even remotely the case. Your attack and hp doesn't matter if your unit has enough armor to not take damage, so any buffs that are not armor make no difference. And having that amount is the only possible way to stop a large stack of units with only a few of your own if playing Life.

[Seravy]

Basically, a unit enchantment at start of game that grants +1 melee and +1hp/figure turns a swordsman to almost halberdier-level.

We decided not to add a common buff and added Sanctify exactly because none of the ideas for a buff were acceptable. We went through all possible stats and found none of them can work properly.
The problem with this one is that it does mostly the same thing as Heroism but is worse so you never want to use it by itself, it's also a max hp buff which are generally not a good idea due to bugs, but most importantly, if you do stack it with heroism, you have 18 HP swordsmen. On Halberdiers you get 24 hp. That's too much for an early game unit, even if it doesn't have the extra armor. And then there are the halfling swordsmen which would be 24 hp...

[zitro1987]

It does seem armor may be inherently broken as a mechanic, but it is not as bad as we limit it somehow at the start of the game. If we drop the +2 armor of endurance, we might be halfway there

[Seravy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXfEYYBhwSY
Watched part 1 so far, he is using combat cast Holy Armor and pretty much nothing else. He isn't using Heroism - War College is strictly superior... However it's probably worth pointing out, if we remove that option, Life will have pretty much nothing to do at all besides Healing for early combat (as Heroism is useless if you have your war college, bless is only needed against specific realms. Star Fires is not bad but it's not something people or AI pick/research early.)
Draconian bowmen seem to be shockingly fast at clearing out nodes compared to sprites. Maybe they really shouldn't have 8 ammo? Clearing those lairs and nodes is completely acceptable but this quickly, idk. Warlord giving them +1 ranged attack is definitely a big part of this.
I'm not seeing the increased rampaging monsters. Bug? Maybe the Myrran plane is the problem?
Draconians STILL have the +1 racial armor? I'm pretty sure I wanted that gone, why did I not?.. oh I remember now, it's because every other race on Myrror is above average in melee combat. Yeah, makes sense.
...actually, game is pretty much already won by the end of part 1, at most halfway to part 2...

[Bahgtru]

Watched part 1 so far, he is using combat cast Holy Armor and pretty much nothing else. He isn't using Heroism - War College is strictly superior... However it's probably worth pointing out, if we remove that option, Life will have pretty much nothing to do at all besides Healing for early combat

You've missed it. In the first hour he uses heroism in 8 combats (vs only 2 HAs). And guess to what effect?

Draconian bowmen seem to be shockingly fast at clearing out nodes compared to sprites. 

Yep, especially when these bowmen are actually the initial swordmen. With heroism.

Maybe they really shouldn't have 8 ammo? Clearing those lairs and nodes is completely acceptable but this quickly, idk. Warlord giving them +1 ranged attack is definitely a big part of this.

Or maybe heroism shouldn't be used in combat?  Without it he could not say, kill unicorns, and would have used more turns to finish off some other lairs. Warlord+heroism=+3 ranged right? That's doubling it...

Obviously once he's got enough money to buy the war college that's not going to be used anymore, but who cares - at that point he's buying halberdiers to get onto  head (fortress) striking...

[Nelphine]

Agreed. Heroism is extraordinarily important to get the ball rolling. I'd love to see the difference if heroism was overland only (sapher, can you try that and pretend it's a rule for one game, pick something similar to a game you've already done,although, please not draconians I already think the archers are too powerful with life buffs).