RBP3 - [SPOILERS] - Team DIM (Mehmed of HRE)

[meatbalz]

not much to do but grin and bear it. the writing was on the wall when we didn't get confirmation from egypt he would concede CoL to us.

[Ilios]

Wow has it been five days without an update?

Oh well lots of things have happened:

The geo-political situation:


Now that the post-CAN dust has settled, the world is now divided in two loose Tech alliances.

On one side you have PAT (Egypt, Carthage, England, Mali, Babylon and Maya). As you can see, this includes this game's strongest researchers, with three Financial Civs, and two of the remaining Philosophical ones.

On the other side you have CUDDLE (India, Aztec, Ottomans, HRE, Inca, Rome, Portugal and Byzantium). While we have the numbers, as stated previously, we basically are no match for the other alliance, research wise.

The current cunning plan is to leverage Caste System, have everyone get Great Scientist and Great Merchants, bulbing Civil Service, Philosophy, Paper and Guilds (while slow researching Feudalism and Machinery)

Then use our numerical advantage and dogpile either Carthage (best researcher) or Egypt (main gold provider).

I'll post an e-mail chain in chronological order so you can get the drift:


India:

Okay, here is everyone's current tech info:



We currently have three opportunities to get Currency from Babylon, so this plan assumes we will have the ability to gold fund our best tech teams. The bulb plan from Portugal gets us Civil Service, Philosophy, Paper and Guilds. It requires us to slow research Feudalism and Machinery. We further need to consider the need for CAN techs some members were unable to acquire, specifically Currency, Metal Casting, Construction, Monarchy and Calender. Currently our teams are doing the following:

Ottomans - Saving gold
HRE - Code of Laws due next turn
Portugal - Saving gold

Incans - Priesthood in 2 turns

Aztecs - Saving gold
Rome - Monotheism due in 4 turns
India - Aesthetics due in 6 turns
Byzantium - Saving gold

Portugal has already invested a turn into Feudalsim, plans on running multiple scientists under caste system, and can get to 59 beakers/turn in a pinch. So they get Feudalism. Machinery needs to go to a civ that has Metal Casting, which is either India or Byzantium. Byzantium is in better near term shape for this task. The two critical CAN techs that need spreading around are Metal Casting and Currency. Those go to the Ottomans and HRE, respectively. We have four teams teching, with a total expense (at 100% research) of 95 gold/turn. The remaining four teams can contribute (at 0% research) a surplus of 55 gold/turn. Currency and the Buddhist Shrine will help out quite a bit and we'll just have to manage in the meantime.

I recognize that Construction, Monarchy and Calendar are left out of the first round, we'll have to put Ottomans and HRE on two of them when they finish round 1. We also need to start saving up gold for a Guilds push once the bulbs come in, so I don't anticipate moving a funding civ to a teching civ to pick up that third tech.

Comments?

Darrell

HRE

Darrell - DJ,


Tha!nks for the overview!


A couple of points:

I thought Portugal was going to run Merchant specialists to bulb Civil Service?
As mentioned previously, we plan to run 4 Scientist from around T94 onwards. Let us know if that is still ok.

Both Ottomans and HRE have gotten Calendar from Mali, meaning we won't be able to research this tech and Monarchy.

If it is agreed HRE heads for Currency after saving up gold, I can give T100 as a rough estimate for getting it, provided someone can fuel some of our research.

@Ruff

We will be sending out a two mover to Azteca to escort a Missionary. We could reach your lands as early as T96. Let us know if we should send him our already.


Ilios - DIM

Aztec:

Ruff will get the Great Prophet India popped to build the Buddhist Shrine. Needless to say, he will become our main gold provider.

I'll dig out my trusty old map and calculator and give everyone an ETA on missionaries. I'll create a google doc that keeps track of them and give you guys access to it.

Is Rome on this circular too?

Off the top of my head, and putting T0 as the current turn (I never know what the actual turn is) ...

T2 - missionary from capital to my 2nd city
T4 - missionary from my 2nd city to India
T5 - missionary from capital to Inca
T7 - missionary from my 2nd city to India on its way to HRE

I have about 4 or 5 forests around my 2nd city that I will turn into missionaries. My plan is to move them towards the civ that they are heading for but to gift them off if I run through someone else's land (ie India). That will mean that I can stay within the 3 missionary limit while still pumping them out.

If you send an escort, then you should gift it to me for the return trip - I will gift both the escort and the missionary to the civ if I find myself in their territory. Local map info regarding roads would be useful.

Ruff

Ottomans:

Greetings all

Tech plan sounds good. However, would like to suggest that we head for
currency and HRE heads for MC instead. We can probably get currency
with an ETA of T96-98, which is a bit earlier than HRE, but the real
reason is if, for some reason, none of us get currency, we are in much
better shape to get it since we've been saving gold for a while now.
Regardless of the tech we head for, we will need more gold to finish
it so if someone does get currency, could someone send us some $?
(Probably Ruff, although he would have to pay through someone else).

Ruff, we can get a 2 mover into your lands in around 7-10 turns. We're
in no rush to get it though so we can be a lower priority on the list
of civs to get it. If you intend to send one to HRE, might I suggest
you head through our lands since heading through India will be a much
longer route.

I 2nd HRE's question about Portugal running Merchants instead of
scientists. We can also run scientists, and can probably do so around
T95ish.

Enough Talking!
WarriorKnight of A4

Byzantium:

Okay, bulb CS (or guilds if someone else takes it) and slow-tech machinery, got it


My civ just got Priesthood (thanks Inca!) and Monarchy (thanks... England!) this turn, so once I have code of laws I'll revolt into Hed Rule and Caste System & get started on generating a merchant ASAP. Losing slavery bites, but anything for the good of the alliance, and also guilds



(about the Monarchy trade- I had set that up before PAT and CUDDLE back when my team was still freelancing, in case anyone was curious).



For the Spectre Council,

HRE:

Hi,


I still have some gold in the bank to get three turns of 100 % research done, but I'm not sure if the remaining members can fund four teams researching at the same time. Current ETA of MC is T99, which includes a turn of Anarchy. I'm guessing I can shave off a couple of turns once I'm running those scientists. Costs will increase quite a bit on T92, since I'm founding a city about 9 distance from the capital.
So do I keep running 100% research, or do I save some gold first?

I'm more than willing to gift CoL to Byzantium so they can start running merchants. Best wait until the city they select to run them is ready, before we gift the tech, so we don't tip off PAT about our plans.

There should be a chariot in or around Ruff's second city around T96. I will gift it and send a screenshot with an optimal path to faciliate the missionary's return trip. Ruff will be able to gift the missionary about 4 turns after leaving Aztec lands.

Multiple Barbarian Axes appearing at our borders has already scuttled that plan... I'm hoping we can send out a chariot in a couple of turns.

Ottomans:

Hi,


I still have some gold in the bank to get three turns of 100 % research done, but I'm not sure if the remaining members can fund four teams researching at the same time. Current ETA of MC is T99, which includes a turn of Anarchy. I'm guessing I can shave off a couple of turns once I'm running those scientists. Costs will increase quite a bit on T92, since I'm founding a city about 9 distance from the capital.
So do I keep running 100% research, or do I save some gold first?

I'm more than willing to gift CoL to Byzantium so they can start running merchants. Best wait until the city they select to run them is ready, before we gift the tech, so we don't tip off PAT about our plans.

There should be a chariot in or around Ruff's second city around T96. I will gift it and send a screenshot with an optimal path to faciliate the missionary's return trip. Ruff will be able to gift the missionary about 4 turns after leaving Aztec lands.

Byzantium:

Hi,


Sorry, I don't exactly know exactly yet when my team will get our great merchant(s), or finish machinery... just revolted to caste system and hed rule this turn, haven't run any sims yet. The appearance of multiple barb axes across my borders over the last couple turns may slow my teching or merchant generation by a turn or two if my zone defense units get unlucky. Hopefully that won't be the case


I'll try to work with Mania and Moogle to get some numbers soon.


-Bobchillingworth

Aint that the truth...

Portugal:

Hi guys,

Little update, we are now running 4 scientists and have an eta of 9 turns for our first one (T101). I had arranged with Byz for them to do the CS bulb instead of us as it became apparent that we weren't going to receive a religion from anyone else any time soon. So we are hoping to get Taoism from the Philo bulb so we can use Pacifism effectively. We can still run 4 merchants (or even 5 with starvation giving eta of 7t bulb CS T99) instead of scientists if it turns out Byz can't get a quick eta for their one but we would really prefer not to. We are still one of the few civs in a diplomatic position secure enough to use Pacifism. Would it be possible to arrange a back up supply of a religion of some description if our philo bulb falls through?

Our eta for feudalism is now oscillating between 15 and 16 turns but we will need funding to complete it. I think we have 156 gold left in bank and -31 expenses a turn and we are generating 58 bpt. It's looking like quite a few people will shortly need funding. Babylon's eta for currency was supposed to be this turn but it appears to have been delayed.

So a quick summary of the state of our researchers this turn (T92) then:

Portugal: Feudalism (15t), Scientist - philo bulb (9t), 156gp in bank -31gpt, will need funding in 6 turns time.
Ottomans: Currency (4-6T, T96-98) will need funding to complete.
Byzantium: Machinery (T??), Merchant - CS bulb (T??)
HRE: Metal Casting (T99)
Aztecs: Monarchy (9t or 19T)
Incans: Finished Priesthood saving money?
Rome: Finished monotheism saving money?
India: Aesthetics (4t? T96?)

I think Inca, Rome and Aztecs now have all the prerequisites necessary for us to gift them the techs we are researching. Except for monarchy but because our eta for feud is far enough away I think Aztecs should perhaps fund someone instead of researching? We still need another civ on scientists (paper) and another on merchants (guilds). The guilds dude will have to be our strongest researcher as a merchant bulb only gets 2/3rds of the way there.

Thoughts?

Mukha
CBE

Ottomans:

So you're running scientists now? It doesn't make a big deal but we
need to get this ironed out ASAP.

If we still need funding for some civs, perhaps we should be saving
gold for a bit after we get currency. Because of that, we could head
for a GM instead and be the one to bulb guilds for the group. HRE
could head to construction after they finish MC and bulb paper with a
GS (or we could swap roles, actually that might be best, I dunno).

If you miss Taoism, I don't see how you could get a religion anytime
soon. Krill controls most of them and being a PAT member his
co-operation is unknown. Ruff is quite far away from you so that's
unlikely too. If you want Taoism, might I suggest you start hiring
scientists ASAP since PAT might have their eye on it as well.

I think Ruff should head for Monarchy. The question is when should he?
Probably after currency is best since we can have much more cash
available by then.


Enough Talking!
WarriorKnight of A4

HRE:

CUDDLE,


HRE will only start running Great People on T97, and will get one on T104. If Byzantium cannot get a Great Merchant before that date, then I suggest we take it and bulb Civil Service (also, does a bulb knock out the entire cost of CS?), to gain access to Bureaucracy asap. Otherwise we'll be running Scientists to speed up our MC research.

I think it is a good idea for Ottomans to run max gold after discovering Currency. If that is the case, then it might be a good idea for them to run merchants for the Guilds bulb. Should the HRE research prove stronger than Ottomans', they could alway gift the Merchant to us to bulb the tech.

I second Ottomans' proposal for Aztec or Rome to head for Monarchy as soon as Currency is available. If Aztec can build/chop/whip a Market in its Holy City pretty soon (provided the Prophet has created the Shrine), then I think it would make more sense for Aztec to remain a gold provider, and have Rome head for Monarchy instead.
Sandover, could you provide us with an ETA at 100% and break even research?

As for our Metal Casting research, we have a current ETA of 9 turns, but this will decrease soon enough. We currently have enough money in the bank for 2-3 turns of 100% research. It would seem that Portugal has enough gold in the bank to last at least 6 turns. Provided someone of CUDDLE does get Currency, initially, I would suggest funding of HRE and Ottoman research, until Ottomans discover Currency (T97), wherupon Rome or Aztec start research for Monarchy, and Ottomans become funders (while running Merchants?). Once Metal Casting is done (T97-100), HRE could head for Construction or Literacy (we will soon have a HE unit) immediately, while waiting for a GS to pop Paper.

As Inca seems to be at its expanding limit at the moment, would it be possible for them to provide cheap settlers to the other teams?

So to recap:

- if possible, could Byzantium provide an ETA for their Great Merchant?
- could Rome give an ETA of Monarchy at 100% research?


Yours,


Ilios - DIM

Inca:

Hi Cuddle,

We of Inca are recovering pretty quick from our fast expansion.
We now get 18 gpt, only improving more once cities mature. We can also get 60+ beakers per turn.
Currently we've parked research at Calender. We could get that at max 22 turns at break even.

Once our cities grow a bit more, we will build some settlers/workers and we can send them to our allies.
We do have 2-3 more sites we would like to settle as well in the next years, but they are no priority yet.

Due to the growing size of our empire, we would love to receive CoL as soon as you think you can safely give it to us.

Kind regards,
Nakor for JANK

These guys are getting all these techs, so I need them to fund the others before heading for Calendar.

Rome:

Hi guys,

Rome has now finished Mono and current ETA on Monarchy is turn 101 if I start now, as the money saved up during the war is enough to fuel it at 100%. This may potentially change some as I intend to found my fifth city before turn 100, but the delay shouldn't be more than a few turns at worst as my core cities are hard at work developing cottages. Let me know if I should pursue this path or stock up on cash until Currency.

Regards,
Sandover

Aztec:

Hi All,

A few things ...

1) Spoke to Kyan yesterday and found out why they are called PAT ...

Apparently, it started out as Post CAN Group that got cut down to Post CAN and then someone called it Postman ... which is just a short jump from Pat the Postman (US readers will not understand but that is actually a little bit funny).

2) Anyway, latest tech details (from above) are:


Portugal: Feudalism (15t), Scientist - philo bulb (9t), 156gp in bank -31gpt, will need funding in 6 turns time.
Ottomans: Currency (4-6T, T96-98) will need funding to complete.
Byzantium: Machinery (T??), Merchant - CS bulb (T??)
HRE: Metal Casting (T99)
Aztecs: Monarchy (9t or 19T)
Incans: Finished Priesthood saving money?
Rome: Finished monotheism saving money?
India: Aesthetics (4t? T96?)


Can anyone feed Ottomans coin to finish currency? Rome have suggested swapping to Monarch - I totally think that is a good idea - and I will mod my civ to 100% coin (who needs libraries anyway).

3) Finally - lets collect map information (this will also help me map out missionary paths). If everyone can send me some screenshots of their known land, I will paste them together and send them all back.

Alt-I (remove interface)
Ctrl-B (Bare Map)
Alt-F (satellite view)
Scroll back to just under the clouds and snap away

(I think I have those hot keys correct).

Ruff

Ah Postman Pat... and his black and white cat...

[Ilios]

Cunning Plan Tech Recap:

Portugal: Feudalism (15t), Scientist - philo bulb (9t), 156gp in bank -31gpt, will need funding in 6 turns time.
Ottomans: Currency (4-6T, T96-98) will need funding to complete.
Byzantium: Machinery (T??), Merchant - CS bulb (T??)
HRE: Metal Casting (T99) will need funding /Paper Bulb or Academy T104
Aztecs: pure gold provider
Incans: Parked at Calendar - provider initially
Rome: Monarchy ETA T100
India: Aesthetics (4t? T96?)

[Ilios]

Got Rome and Inca already clamouring for CoL, but I'm a bit reticent, because Inca already got HBR basically for free, and will be researching Calendar in a bit, which we already have. Rome is researching Monarchy, which we got from England.

I'm thinking we could ask for a couple of Settlers to grease the deal, since there's nothing else they could offer us. (apart from resources or advantageous settling agreements)

I'll try to post a screenshot of our lands tonight.

Meatbalz, if you're there, the Marble city is currently called MB, so if you want you can change that to whatever you want...

[Ilios]

[SIZE="5"]T100 Update:[/SIZE]

Overview of the Empire:




DIM:




Yes, I'm working a grassland forest, but I should have a few workers there soon, and in any case, I plan to whip a Forge as soon as switch back from Caste System to Slavery on T105.

Midas:




Same story here. Forge to be built after Library, and to be whipped to completion on T106.
I've just had a barb Axe suicide against my Axe in a forest, redlining poor Metternich. Another Barb axe has appeared on Midas' eastern border, which I plan to destroy with a C2Shock Chariot.

Singa Mati:




This city is slow building a Settler while working four Merchant Specialists. The Great Merchant will be used to bulb Civil Service. I have two more chops coming in, which will finish the Settler on T105, just in time for the civics switch to Slavery and Bureaucracy.

Augian Peak:




AP will finish the Archer (slated for MP duty in DIM), and switch to a worker. I have two workers finishing a grassland hill, and will use a chop to finish the worker in a few turns.

MB:




Future Military Pump. I will chop out a Buddhist Monastery as soon as Ottomans get a Missionary there. This will help to keep control of the critical Wheat tile. Probably a forge after and then Barracks, then Rathause and Heroic Epic.

[Ilios]

Military Advisor:




I haven't built a lot of troops since the French War. Due to the relentless barbarian incursions, there are now three Heroic Epic level troops. (all of which started with 0 XP)
A C2 Shock Chariot and Horse Archer, and a C1 F1 Sentry Chariot.
Eight Workers for five cities is not bad, but I hope I can build some more soon, since cities will grow much larger with HR and Forges doubling Gold and Silver's happiness effect.

Demographics:




The only statistics where HRE are competitive are GNP (but this is probably due to MC research, which is known by almost all the other Teams) and Population (my cities haven't been whipped in a while).

I hope Crop Yield and MFG will increase soon, as the newer cities grow and workers add improvements. I've got to say, I have received the map of most of the other teams, and HRE lands are decidedly underwhelming compared to theirs.

Score Graph:




If I take the couple of tech we are currently still behind, I'm pretty happy with the score, especially if the lost settler is taken into account. Metal Casting, Construction and Literacy will all come in very soon, and I think the HRE is in the middle of the pack currently.


Power Graph:



England is the clear n° 1 Military Power. They have not sent a notice yet with their intent to activate our NAP cooldown, so for the moment, I am going for some more infrastructure before building some more units (especially since many units will be obsolete soon)

MFG Graph:




As previously mentioned, underwhelming for the moment, as HRE only has three cities of decent size.

Crop Yield Graph:




Not great! The Creative teams have really shown their strength in this game, pulling in valuable resources immediately, while I've had to wait until a Monument has finally popped a border. Some teams have managed to place cities with good resources in its first ring, but I cannot see any nearby locations where we could have pulled that off. (except maybe for Singa Mati)
The next city sites will probably be pretty far from the capital, as I skip the eastern steppes for some better sites. More on that later.

GNP Graph:




I'm actually pretty happy with those figures. HRE can pull around 100 beakers/turn at decent costs (around 25 gpt at the moment). With the Merchant specialists we're at around 85 beakers.

[Ilios]

Future city sites:

The center:




Green Dot will steal the grass Sheep from Singa, and claim the Iron as well. Add a couple more farm and this will become a decent city. Note it will have at least 8 forests to chop a wonder, hopefully. It will be founded on T106 by the settler being produced in Singa.

The east:




Notice the enormous expanse of horrible, resource-less, dry plains to DIM's east. Red Dot will be the next city claim, probably founded with a settler built by the Incans. Blue Dot is another great site, claiming two Sheep (plains and grassland), Gold and Fur. I plan on founding this site only a couple of turns after Red Dot.

The north:




Yellow Dot is another one of those so-so city sites. It claims a plains cow, a whole floodplain (yay!) and Silk. Black Dot will be a pretty good commerce city, with some overlap with Rome's city.

[Ilios]

Ok so I've changed my mind about the Heroic Epic. MB, the new marble city, will take too long to set up as a military pump.
Instead, I plan to build it in the capital. If you look at the city, you can see it has far too many hills to be an effective commerce city.



If the city works the 3 grassland hills, a plains hill and a river plains farm, it should pull in 18 base hammers per turn. Once all the multipliers are added, DIM should arrive at 49.50 hammers per turn when building units (HE +100%, Bureaucracy +50%, Forge +25%). If I can micro a couple of hammers overflow when starting to build Horse Archers, it should get one each turn.

So the plan is now to build a Forge, to be 2 pop whipped on T106 (at 45 shields per pop thanks to Bureaucracy), for some nice overflow into the Heroic Epic (all production will be boosted by 175% for this National Wonder - Marble +100%, Bureaucracy +50%, Forge +25%). Together with a chop, the HE should finish in 1 turn, with another chop to follow the turn after, if necessary, to finish a Stables by T108.
So if everything works out, DIM should be spamming Horse Archers from T109 onwards.

[Ilios]

India have come up with a plan to raze Egypt's Hindu Holy City, using 15 Horse Archers, half of which they will provide themselves. They have asked for the rest of the alliance to provide the rest.
That was around T100, and they mentioned they should have their part of the force ready in about a dozen turns. I'm pretty sure DIM could send over some Horse Archers, but I'm afraid the newly minted units will not be ready to be used by that time. I'm going to ask India if they mean to have their units in position in a dozen turns or just ready to be sent to the front.

[dazedroyalty]

Sorry for being MIA for so long. We just went through the final big push at work this past month and it's been quite crazy. I've been reading the sporatic updates but haven't contributed much. Much apologies, Ilios, for leaving you to it on your own.

Looking at the demographics we're doing prety well in GNP (that's the power of those rathauses), but obviously much lower in production and (probably as a result) soldier count.

Diplomatically, I think Krill needs to come down. Taking Confu away and trying to dominate the religious scene is irksome, to say the least. I always had a question in the back of my mind about what Krill was hoping to gain from the whole alliance. He's very intelligent but not self less. So I support bringing him down.

In terms of future cities, I'm in favor of the locations that provide the most new food resources. For example, the iron site that shares the sheep is a good eventual city, but really low priority. If we can afford it and defend it, I'd be most interested int he double sheep site in old France. With so much food, we could whip it regularly which would help out a ton with our lower production. Long term it could play a number of different roles depending on our needs.