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[spoilers] Mr. Cairo Steels himself for another Pitboss

It's been a while and the game doesn't look as though it's going to end soon, so let's have a report

Firstly, things are heating up again on the international stage. After DZ was eliminated not much seemed to happen for a while, but last turn Rusten declared war on Naufragar and Commodore:



I can see him attacking Commodore, but I don't understand the attack on Naufragar. Anyway, I expect this to be a very bloody war. Both Rusten and Comm have large empires, with many coastal cities and many islands. There is no single "front line" to fight over. In fact, my scouting Caravels have only revealed an attack by Commodore on Rusten:

But Muskets on Muskets, without collateral support, is not going to get either of them very far. Fleet battles will be important, but only if it allows for landing a real army in either of their cores. there'll probably be a number of peripheral cities changing hands.
Here's the power graph:

They're evenly matched, and I don't know if Naufragar will have much of an impact on the fight. But what will BGN and Gavagai do? Gavagai is better situated to do something, but what that is, I can't guess. I need to be prepared for an attack though, in case he uses this opportunity to attack me without worrying about being eaten by either of the sharks. I got Chemistry 1 turn ahead of him, but that doesn't amount to a whole lot. I need actual frigates. I had prepared for this by pre-building Triremes in many cities to become Frigates in the queue:




I also realised I need to do something to improve my commerce/gold. My teching is good, PHI/CRE means cheap Libraries and Universities, but I still have high costs, and my last two Villages are about to become Towns, so no commerce growth there. The quickest and easiest way is with Castles, since each of my trade routes these days are worth 5-6 commerce. Unfortunately Economics isn't very far away, so I won't get a lot of utility out of them, but in those cities that can't build Market/Grocer in a reasonable time, it's a worthwhile investment. I had to cancel my Stone-Marble trade with BGN though, but that's ok, I used the Marble to get the National Epic, and there's nothing else I need it for.
Here's the GNP graph:

I had all my cities on Wealth for a few turns to get Chemistry with the cash I had on hand, so it's a little inflated, but even without that my GNP is #1 while teching:


My tech path is going to be Replaceable Parts->Rifling->Nationalism. I wasn't able to get to Chemistry ahead of anyone (I forgot that I needed Engineering and for some reason I thought I could bulb it, more on that later). But I will be able to get to Rifling ahead of everyone else. I'm sitting on nationalism while I save cash so as not to scare anyone who might have tech visibility on me.


I also made what was possibly a mistake this turn. I had amassed three Great Scientists, and my thought was to use them to bulb, but they only generate ~1950 bulbs each, which is a lot, but techs are getting very expensive. I had previously assumed that the game would be over by the time an Academy paid for itself in beakers (ie: produced more beakers that the bulb would), so I had decided to forget about them. But the only tech I can bulb with them was Scientific Method. Which is good, especially for Physics and Airships, but Physics is so expensive. But in the end I did use them to bulb most of SciMeth:

Three Academies might not generate that many beakers before the game ends, but at least I'd have been able to put them into more useful techs  smoke Let's just hope the game lasts long enough for me to get to Physics and control the skies with my mighty Airships.


So my plan is to get to Rifles, upgrade a bunch of them, and attack BGN. Not against his mainland (at first), but snipe off all this outer-lying cities and islands, like the ones to my West:

I'm sending a scout to see if he's settled any other cities in these islands. These cities of mine are turning out quite well, the ones on the souther coast are pretty lackluster, but I Got The News is pretty great.


Here's a selection of some of my more important cities:

Capital, good as always. I don't think great enough to warrant Bureaucracy. Environmentalism+Mercantilism is still better right now.


Top hammer city, making 40/turn with the Forge  hammer


Moai city, nuff said.


My next Great person


Followed by this one


And then this one, from my National Epic city

These three will be used for a Golden Age (although I might use the Merchant to bulb most of Economics, since I'll get a free one from that tech). I'll want to swap to my final set of civics during that Golden Age, which will be Representation, Nationhood, Caste System, Mercantilism, Free Religion. I think that given the techs I can get to, Rep+Merc Specialists are still the way to go. Nationhood is necessary to get units out of some of my hammer-light cities, even 2-pop Rifle Drafts are good.
I'll probably stay in Pacifism for the Golden Age, and see if I can get another Great person out of the NE city, but after that I think that some of these cities are more valuable working tiles and making stuff than sitting on specialists for 20+ turns at a time, and Pacifism is getting expensive as I build more units.
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Well, Rusten is winning his war against Commodore, but Gav has just declared on Rusten and took a city. I hope this game continues long enough for me to actually do something...

I need Rifling in order to do something, and I'm getting Replaceable Parts next turn so I am getting closer to Rifling, and I think I'll stick with my Wealth builds to keep going towards it as fast as possible.

What I'm going to do with Rifling, well, BGN is the obvious target, starting with taking his island cities, before eventually building up enough to go for the mainland. But I might also get involved in the war with Rusten. He has some cities near to me that I can poach. I may just burn them though, since I don't want him to come after me trying to retake them. In any case I need at least 10 more turns, although if the defenses of Rustens cities near me are poor, I might go after them sooner.
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OK, BGN has declared war on Rusten, taking back one of his cities. It looks like the dogpile is real, so let's get in on this action. I sent out one of my Frigate Fleets to try and intercept some of Rusten's ships, and I canceled a luxury trade and Open Borders. Losing those trade routes did hurt, ~ 20 commerce worth, but it'll have hurt Rusten even more. And signal my intentions to everyone else.

Back home I'm building science buildings in most of my ciites right now, but in a couple turns I'll swap over to max Wealth for a while, and get Nationalism. In about 10 turns I'll have a Golden Age, and I want by the end of it to have got Constitution and Rifling at least. With Rifles I can do some actual damage.
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Commodore wants to concede to Rusten and has requested we ask the other player to see if they want to continue or also concede. Thoughts?

Darrell
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ffs. No.

I do not want this game to end before I've had a chance to really do anything. I'm nearing Rifles and no-one else is even close. But that's just me.

I'd imagine that this concession from Commodore came now because Gav just made peace with Rusten. And that annoys me, because it doesn't make any sense.
If Gavagai wasn't serious about trying to prevent Rusten from winning then why go to war in the first place?
If all he wanted was to take a few cities then give up, then why string the rest of us along for the past couple weeks thinking you were serious about stopping Rusten?
If you are still serious about stopping Rusten and plan to go back to war in 10 turns, surely you'd have realized that by making peace now you'll make Comm think that you've given up, causing him to give up, causing Rusten to win.

What really pisses me off is that I don't think Rusten has this game locked up yet, but since Commodore wants to concede its clear he's not going to put the effort in to try and win himself. And now that you've gone ahead and told everyone else they'll think the same and will also stop trying. Or rather, Gavagai will stop trying (I don't think naufragar and BGN have been trying much for a while now). And if Gavagai gives up then Rusten will win.

It seems to me that most games here end this way. By the medieval age there's always a few civs that have lost their chance of winning (BGN, Nau), a few that stay competitive but not at the top (Me, Gavagai), and two that are duking it out "for the win" (Rusten, Commodore). And while they're battling for first the contenders still feel they have a chance and the game continues. Until one of the two at the top decides they've lost and packs it in, essentially conceding the game on behalf of everyone else. And all too often it takes very little for one of those two at the top to make that decision.
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So just to be clear, that's a "no" wink? It has to be unanimous obviously, if you want to keep going you should and no one will begrudge you that...

Darrell
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(April 4th, 2019, 16:06)darrelljs Wrote: So just to be clear, that's a "no" wink?  It has to be unanimous obviously, if you want to keep going you should and no one will begrudge you that...

Darrell

yes, that's a no
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How do you win from your position?
Current games (All): RtR: PB80 Civ 6: PBEM23

Ended games (Selection): BTS games: PB1, PB3, PBEM2, PBEM4, PBEM5B, PBEM50. RB mod games: PB5, PB15, PB27, PB37, PB42, PB46, PB71. FFH games: PBEMVII, PBEMXII. Civ 6:  PBEM22 Games ded lurked: PB18
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(April 4th, 2019, 16:33)Krill Wrote: How do you win from your position?
Therein lies the problem with this whole situation (ie, telling us that Comm wants to concede). Because my path to victory relies on Commodore and Gav to keep trying to win themselves.

In a perfect world Rusten continues to get dog-piled by Gav and Commordore (and BGN and Nau I guess), with help from me to keep things going. I get up to Rifles, have a Golden Age, and swap to more advanced civics. IO take those Rifles and conquer BGN.
My economy is already very strong, here's the demos from last turn:

Despite being much smaller than Rusten I can match him in GNP, a lot of that has to do with differences in expenses I know, but in any case conquering BGN might well propel me up to be able to match Rusten or Commodore on my own.

Sure it's unlikely, but if I didn't play because I was unlikely to win I would join any of these game at all, and that goes I think for most of us here. We're not all mackoti.

But now, Commodore has given up, which will cause Gav to give up if he hasn't already, and my chance is gone before I can even try.

I understand that other players may not take that argument very well:
"why should I keep trying to give you a chance of winning?"
To which I answer:
"why am I the only one (other than Rusten of course) who is still trying?"
Even in that perfect world I described Commodore and Gav all have better shots of winning than me.

If me, Commodore, and Gav all keep playing with the intent to win, then one of us probably will. But if just one of us gives up, which I now know Commodore has, then that guarantees Rusten the win, even if me and Gav both keep trying. Which is unlikely ion any since we both (I'm assuming) know that neither of us can win if Commodore's given up, so if Commodore's given up we should too.

I still will vote no to conceding, but if I'm the only one who wants to continue then I wont try and keep the game going against everyone else's will. But don't tell that to the other players, since that knowledge would effect their decisions.

Which brings me to my final point which is that I object strongly to this entire process. The fact that we now know that Comm wants to concede is going to result in players like me or Gav also conceding when we wouldn't have had we not known. I don't think concession should be brought up at all by the lurkers until more than one player decides to concede independently of any lurker intervention.
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More than one player has either conceded or stated they have no chance of winning. It is unfortunate that we've found no more delicate way to do this, but the alternative is games go on until they end.

Darrell
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