(May 4th, 2019, 06:16)JR4 Wrote: We urgently need to improve the Pig as well as making a road, not to mention improving the Copper. I like that site but it`s a little bit of a slow starter.
All true, but I think we can manage it, and I think the gold tile is the clincher. We can probably work Pig + Copper + Gold (growing verrrrrrrrrry slowly from there while making 10hpt and of course the gold commerce) by ... T56, I think? I don't see any other way to get that done so soon. If we develop the city right, it might not work those lake tiles for several ages of the world, but that's mainly because it has so many better tiles to work that we'll want to hook up ASAP anyway.
Quote:Hmm, maybe we should take a short break in Settler production after the third city, allowing our economy to recover?
My thinking right now is that we should get a third and fourth worker as soon as (reasonably) possible after the settler for city 3, then go for the next Settler without chops while the Workers do their thing. I'm trying to figure how how soon is "reasonably" possible - or to put it another way, how to start working cottages ASAP without delaying our third city, and whether we can afford to sneak Agriculture in before Pottery.
Quote:Everything that can avoid wasting Worker turns is good. I`d much rather have a road SW of Antiochus than no road. We should definitely pasture the Cow asap when the borders pop in a few turns.
Just to clarify: We would get a road either way; moving to the hill puts the road on the hill instead of the plains just north of it, which is better positioning and may save a worker turn in the distant future when we eventually are ready to mine that hill. If we wanted to one-turn a granary in the capital, the northern road made that possible at the cost of putting several worker turns into chopping a hill forest into the granary. At this point, I think those hammers and worker turns are better spent on roads and setting up to help pasture the pigs (and so on) at city 3, and that the hammers that would have gone into the granary would be better spent on another Worker at this stage. I may be wrong either or both of those things, but that's my current thinking.
After the reload got sorted out Gavadeath double moved us. Their Warrior isn`t that far away from our borders. Note that there is a Lion across the river that will likely attack the Warrior on the start of next turn (and likely lose). I agree that the best thing to do for our Scout is to return back home for fog busting duties. Gavadeath is in Slavery now and built their second city on t33. They did not build anywhere near their Copper (welll, in principle they could have another source of course). Also, Gavadeath and Cornflakes have made contact.
Our Worker did move to the hill SW of Antiochus and will build a road there starting next turn. I quite like having a road network in place early on. If we`re going for Stone city as our third we could indeed invest heavily in infrastructure to get it up to speed asap. Our second Worker was whipped out this turn and will give us some more options.
We`re dead last in power. We have a Warrior completing soon but I believe that running a farmer`s gambit is the way to get off to a good start (as long as we`re not called out on it).
As The Wheel will finish end of turn we need to decide on tech path this turn already. My gut feel is to go for Pottery asap, even at the expense of losing a few bonus beakers by not getting Agriculture first as access to Granaries, not to mention cottages is extremely important. On the other hand, we do want to tech Agriculture and the sooner, the better. How do you feel about an earlyish Archery (like probably after Pottery)? Those Archers are strong defenders and don`t have any clear counter in the early game. Archery is much cheaper in rtr mod than bts and will only take a few turns to research at max science.
He's being awfully cavalier about that lion. Yes, he'll most likely win, but why take the extra risk of the warrior moving from a forest to a flatland (both across the river from Leo) for one extra move with the Warrior before the fight?
(May 5th, 2019, 07:56)JR4 Wrote: We`re dead last in power. We have a Warrior completing soon but I believe that running a farmer`s gambit is the way to get off to a good start (as long as we`re not called out on it).
We're also picking up 8K power in the next two turns (though we might whip 1K of it away in Antiochus immediately) - about half our current total. Power numbers don't mean anything at this stage of the game unless you do C&D carefully enough to know exactly what they represent for each civ.
...
That said, we do know what we've built, and we certainly are running a farmer's gambit!
I want to agree that Pottery before Agriculture is the best plan, but I'm finding the timings difficult: We'd be completing Pottery at just about the same time our Workers are needed to help set up city 3. (This is true regardless of where city 3 is planted, I believe.)
Timing for Archery is an interesting strategic question; hopefully we'll know more about our situation before we have to make a definite decision.
[EDIT: Actually, I think we might as well start Agriculture next turn since we'll need to drop tech rate to 0% anyway, and I think we're finishing The Wheel more or less to the exact beaker. If that's true, better to put the 1 beaker per turn into a tech with no prereq bonus since it shouldn't actually delay Pottery either way. We'll probably switch back to Pottery when we turn research back on, but just the same...]
I think we can delay Agriculture for awhile. We're not going to be needing it until our 5th city and getting Archery ahead of Agriculture might be worthwhile for security reasons as well.
(May 5th, 2019, 13:13)RefSteel Wrote: I want to agree that Pottery before Agriculture is the best plan, but I'm finding the timings difficult: We'd be completing Pottery at just about the same time our Workers are needed to help set up city 3. (This is true regardless of where city 3 is planted, I believe.)
Even if we don't start laying down cottages immediately we probably don't have enough time to sneak in the Agriculture tech before we do start laying down cottages and putting some hammers into granaries instead of more workers seems like a worthwhile investment.
(May 5th, 2019, 14:33)BaII Wrote: getting Archery ahead of Agriculture might be worthwhile for security reasons as well.
So this is an interesting point. If we tech Pottery -> Archery, we could theoreticaly found our third city on Pink Dot Hill instead of in the south. The cost would be on the order of 50 beakers toward other early tech goals (or 75ish beakers compared with Agri -> Pottery). If we're going to be hooking copper up around the same time anyway though, I'd rather delay Archery.
Now, even assuming we do want to found in the south next, all we gain from teching Agri before Pottery would be a one-time bonus of about fifteen beakers - and that would be silly if it meaningfully delays getting cottages down for our real economy or getting granaries built for long-term food prospects. But looking at the micro for the upcoming turns, I'm not actually sure it does delay anything! We coud put hammers into granaries sooner with pottery first, but would we finish them any sooner? We could start cottaging earlier, but would we finish and work one any sooner? I assumed the answer was yes, but when I looked at the micro, I didn't like any of the options that went that way. (I do plan to keep looking in case you guys can't, but I have limited time.) We can (still) get an early granary in the capital by chopping an extra forest and delaying our road connection, pig pasture, copper mine, and gold mine at city 3. We can get the capital's floodplains cottaged earlier if we consider them a higher priority than e.g. city 3's pigs. Is that worth it? (Not a rhetorical question, actually!)
To make the question specific: If we tech Pottery first, can we do better than the following plan? (We might be able to do a little better even with Agri first; I'll see if I can figure that out too if there's time....)
T34: Wheel complete; Worker complete at Gower, which resumes its Warrior; start Agriculture. The new Worker in Gower moves SW-SE to a riverside grassland forest. The Worker near Antiochus begins a Road. Reduce Science slider to 0%. T35: Warrior complete at Gower, which is now size 2 and begins a Settler, working Fish + Floodplain. The Warrior will need to protect the Copper. Antiochus is now size 2, and works Pig + (the other) Floodplain. The Worker near Gower begins a chop. The Worker near Antiochus completes its Road. We should start getting Warriors into the Copper/Stone area.
T36: Borders at Antiochus pop to 2nd ring. Gower begins a Warrior (with the Settler on hold). The Worker near Antiochus moves 1W to the Cow and begins a Pasture.
T37: Gower resumes its Settler (with the Warrior on hold). Chop complete. Antiochus WHIPS its Workboat (2 -> 1) and works the Pig. Increase Science slider to 40%! T38: Workboat complete at Antiochus, which is now size 2 and resumes its Warrior, working both Floodplains. Gower resumes its Warrior (with its Settler on hold) and works Pig + Fish. Worker near Gower moves 1N to a river grassland forest. Workboat moves to the fish. Increase Science slider to 100%!
T39: Pasture complete. Forest Worker chops. Workboat builds Fishing Nets. Antiochus works Cow + Fish.
T40: Gower is now size 3 and resumes its Settler (with the Warrior on hold) and works Fish + Pig + Floodplain. Worker on the cow roads.
T41: Chop complete; Road complete. T42: Warrior complete at Antiochus, which is now size 3; start Worker, working Cow + Fish + Pig. Gower WHIPS its Settler (3 -> 2) and works Fish + Floodplain. The Worker near Antiochus moves 2E to a plains tile, starts a Road, but then CANCELS orders. The worker near Gower moves 2SW to the Copper. T43: Settler complete at Gower. Start a Worker (with Warrior still on hold). Antiochus starts a Warrior (with the Worker on hold). Settler moves 2SW to a river grassland tile. The Worker near Antiochus moves 1SE to the same tile and begins a Road. The Worker on the Copper begins a Road.
T44: Gower works Fish + Pig. Antiochus works Cow + Fish + Floodplain. Settler WAITS for BOTH Workers to complete Roads, THEN moves S-SW-W to the Stone. T45: Settler WAITS for both Workers to move to the pig tile and begin and complete a Road; THEN Settler founds Prince Of Tyre in place on the Stone; the new city starts a Barracks and works the lake tile. Antiochus resumes its Worker (with the Warrior on hold) and works Pig + Cow + Fish. Gower works Fish + Lake.
T46: Both Workers begin a Pasture. Antiochus WHIPS it Worker (3 -> 2) and works Cow + Fish. Gower works Pig + Fish. T47: Two Workers complete - one at Gower, which resumes its Warrior, and one at Antiochus, which begins a Settler (with its Warrior still on hold). Pasture complete; Prince of Tyre works the Pig. The Worker [EDIT: At Gower moves 1S to a river grassland tile; the Worker at Antiochust moves 1SE to a different river grassland tile; EACH begins a Road, but then CANCELS orders! Set Science slider to 80%! T48: Pottery complete; start Animal Husbandry(?) and set science slider to 0%. All three cities start Granaries (with their various other builds on hold). The Worker near Gower moves 1W to a floodplain and begins a cottage; the Worker near Antiochus moves 1NE to the other floodplain and begins a cottage, but then CANCELS orders! Both Workers on the Pig move 2NE to a river grassland tile and begin a cottage, but then CANCEL orders!
T49: Antiochus is now size 3 and resumes its Settler, working Pig + Cow + Fish. The Worker on the floodplain nearest Gower's Pig moves 1S to the other floodplain and contributes to the cottage. The Workers on the river grassland both move 1N and contribute to the cottage. Cottage complete. Gower works Fish + Cottage.
T50: Prince of Tyre's borders pop to 2nd ring as it grows to size 2 and works Pig + Copper. All four workers move SW-S to the Copper and complete a Mine. (At EoT, the hammers in Warriors at Antiochus and Gower are now in Spears instead, and their hammer decay clocks are reset...)
In any case, putting a couple of beakers into Agriculture by selecting it after The Wheel at 0% science won't hurt no matter what we do, and might help more than you think. (In the plan above, for instance, we need to squeeze out every beaker we can to get Pottery by T48....)
Annnnnnd I think I found a Pottery First plan I like better ... if we're willing to make this a real Farmer's Gambit! There are serious risks that this could be disrupted, even by barbs - even by animals - but we may be able to position our units to make it work, so long as our luck holds out and our rivals don't do anything completely crazy....
T34: Wheel complete; Worker complete at Gower; start Agriculture and reduce Science slider to 0%. Gower begins a Settler (Warrior still on hold!). The new Worker in Gower moves 1SW to a floodplain and begins a Road, but then CANCELS orders. The Worker near Antiochus begins a Road.
T35: Gower resumes its Warrior (with the Settler on hold). Antiochus is now size 2, but immediately WHIPS its Workboat (2 -> 1) and continues to work the Pig. The Worker near Gower moves SW-SE to a river grass forest. Hill Road complete. Our demos look completely terrible for a turn or two, but there's a method to our madness. At least, that's the theory! T36: Workboat complete at Antiochus as its borders pop to 2nd ring; it resumes its Warrior. Gower is now size 2 and works Fish + plains forest (1/2/0). The Worker on the hill moves 1W to the Cow and begins a Pasture. The Worker on the forest chops. The Workboat moves N-NW to the Fish. Switch tech to Pottery and increase Science slider to 100%!
T37: Gower resumes its Settler (with the Warrior on hold) and works Fish + Floodplain. Workboat nets the Fish, but Antiochus continues to work the Pig! Chop complete.
T38: Gower resumes its Warrior (with the Settler on hold) and works Fish + Pig. Antiochus works the Fish. The Worker near Gower moves 1N to another forest.
T39: Antiochus is now size 2 and works Cow + Fish. New Warrior moves to help cover Copper. Pasture complete. Worker near Gower Chops. T40: Warrior complete at Gower, which is now size 3 and resumes its Settler, working Pig + Fish + Floodplain. Cow Worker moves NE-SE to a river plains tile, "wasting" a turn on movement. The new Warrior should move toward the Copper; the Scout and/or old Warrior need to be on watch to make sure the copper will be safe for the next few turns as well!
T41: Chop complete. Assuming the coast is clear, the plains Worker moves SE-S to the Copper. T42: Warrior complete at Antiochus, which is now size 3; start Worker, working Cow + Fish + Pig. Gower WHIPS its Settler (3 -> 2) and works Fish + Floodplain. Copper Worker begins a Road. Worker near Gower moves 1SW to a river grassland tile and begins a Road, but then CANCELS orders! Reduce science slider to 50%. T43: Pottery complete; Settler complete at Gower, which begins a Worker; select tech (TBD) and set Science slider to 0%. Copper Road complete. Grassland Worker moves 1N to a Floodplain and begins a Cottage, but then CANCELS orders! Settler moves SW-S to a part-roaded river grassland tile.
T44: Antiochus WHIPS its Worker (3 -> 2) and works Cow + Fish. Gower works Pig + Fish. Settler WAITS for the Floodplain Worker to move 1S to the Settler's part-roaded grassland and complete the Road. THEN the Settler moves 2SE-E to the Stone. The Copper Worker moves 1SE to the Pig and begins a Road, but then CANCELS orders!. T45: Worker complete at Antiochus, which starts a Granary. Settler builds Prince of Tyre on the Stone; the new city starts a Granary, working a grass hill forest (1/2/0). The Grassland Worker moves 2SW to the Pig, and both of the Workers there begin a Pasture (first WAITING for the city to be built). The new Worker from Antiochus moves 1SE to a river grassland and begins a Road, but then CANCELS orders! T46: Worker Complete at Gower, which begins a Granary. The grassland Worker moves 1NE to a floodplain and begins a Cottage. The new Worker from Gower moves 1W to the same floodplain and contributes to the Cottage. Pasture complete. Prince of Tyre works the Pig.
T47: One of the workers on the Pig WAITS while the other completes the Road. THEN the remaining Pig Worker moves 2NE to a roaded river grassland and begins a Cottage, but then CANCELS orders!
T48: The grassland Worker moves 1N to a Floodplain and resumes the part-built Cottage, but then CANCELS orders. [EDIT: One of the Workers on the other Floodplain completes the Cottage; the other moves 1S to join the Worker on the other (part-Cottaged) Floodplain and contributes to the Cottage. The Pig Worker moves 2NE to a roaded river grassland and continues a Cottage already started there.
T49: Gower and Antiochus both grow to size 3. The Worker on the Cottage moves 1S to the other Floodplain and contributes to the Cottage. A Worker already present there completes the Cottage. The remaining floodplains Worker moves 1S to join the Worker on the roaded river grassland, helps to complete the Cottage. Antiochus starts a Settler and works Cow + Fish + Pig. Gower starts a Worker and works Fish + Floodplain Cottage + Floodplain Cottage.]
T50: Prince of Tyre is now size 2 as it pops borders to second ring and works Pig + Copper. All four Workers move to the Copper via the road, and begin and complete a Mine.
...and we might still be able to improve on this too....
The Lion south of Gower attacked Gavadeath`s Warrior and lost. The Warrior has 0.6 health left. Our Scout ran past the wounded Warrior (admittedly taking a slight risk) and is now in place to fogbust or act as an extra defender in case of emergency.
I very much appreciate having the luxury of choosing between two detailed micro plan as as they diverged on this turn a decision on which path to follow had to be taken already. I like the second plan a lot but it just seemed a little bit too risky trying to get away with a single Warrior for several more turns. As you might already have guessed we`re going for the first plan instead. A slightly more conservative approach, true, but I think it`s a strong plan with a more than decent chance of snowballing ahead. A second Warrior will finish end of turn and will help defending our Copper.
We`re saving gold on Agriculture for the time being. Every beaker counts as they say. We can swap to Pottery if we want to once we turn on tech.
If we`re going to build our third city on Stone we do need to choose between getting cottages down early or getting our third city ready to contribute and I think we have to prioritize Pig/Copper/Gold over very early cottages, though it does hurt a bit as Pericles desperately wants those cottages early.
Demos look pretty bad at the moment but I`m basically unconcerned as our cities will grow with lightning speed (and we already have a second city growing end of turn).
Oh, and I almost forgot that another Lion moved in on our Warrior out west. We have Combat 1, defensive terrain (hill) and 10 % defensive bonus when the Lion moves next turn. Losing our Warrior would be bad of course but we have very good odds on winning. I`d feel stupid if we get a disastrous roll but surely the rng can`t hate us that much?
Amusingly, each of my detailed microplans contained minor transcription errors (now fixed via edit, even though the second one is obsolete) that didn't affect the overall outcome. I will also note that our actions on T34 still work with a version of the Pottery-first plan; I'll try to post an updated version tonight in case we want to go with that.
I'm actually really worried about that lion. We'll have odds in the neighborhood of 90% - better than Gavadeath's last turn - but I'd have felt a lot safer moving to the forest. Of course, with my luck, a bear would then have turned up on that fogged grassland tile 2N, so....
