The barbs like building cities on weird spots. Oh well, Donovan is Cre so those borders will expand soon enough. Our Scout will sneak through and try to get a better picture of the area N of Donovan`s capital. If we get surrounded by Zulu culture we`ll head back west instead.
We do spend a lot of resources on maybe getting a key wonder. And, yes, taking Prince of Tyre off unit/foodhammer/Granary duty will hurt our chances of getting more than our fair share of the territory short term. We shouldn`t delay our next city too long imo and the most extreme plan of getting the mids on t76 does seem, well, a bit extreme. We`ll still have an excellent chance of getting them t78.
In principle I like the idea of going for a Mathematics bulb. Maths is quite expensive and the quicker we get to Currency the quicker we can pay for additional cities. Maths is valuable in its own right too as those boosted chops make for a ton of free hammers. We`d probably need to skip Archery for a good while as I don`t see any way of getting a Library done and getting a Great Scientist out in a reasonable time frame otherwise.
Bulbing Math seems pretty excessive no? I do think Mids offers a lot of value in this game but using the first GS this early in the game on a bulb seems like a waste when things like an Academy provide a lot of long term benefit.
(May 26th, 2019, 08:33)BaII Wrote: Bulbing Math seems pretty excessive no? I do think Mids offers a lot of value in this game but using the first GS this early in the game on a bulb seems like a waste when things like an Academy provide a lot of long term benefit.
As Phi we do get some options that others don`t - like the ability of bulbing one or more key techs to gain a temporary tech edge. Mathematics in particular will allow us to get much more value out of chops at a very early stage which will in turn allow us to get out foodhammer units and/or Granaries sooner. We can pretty easily get another Great Scientist for an Academy (and a third for our first Golden Age). I`d say that bulbing Maths is at the very least worth thinking about at this stage of the game and not a waste imo. An early Academy will benefit our civ in the long run, however..
(May 26th, 2019, 06:31)JR4 Wrote: the most extreme plan of getting the mids on t76 does seem, well, a bit extreme. We`ll still have an excellent chance of getting them t78.[/qu
In principle I like the idea of going for a Mathematics bulb.
So, to clarify:
- The extra cost in resources of the T76 plan relative to other plans is in part to get Writing ASAP, in part to get a library the turn after Writing comes in, and in part the opportunity cost of bulbing Math: Either the food and hammers we could have gotten by working tiles instead of scientists with 14 citizen-turns in Antiochus or the early Academy we could have built in lieu of a bulb; take your pick. Or to put it another way, the cost of the T76 plan outside of Tyre comes entirely from the requirements of the Math bulb, starting with the delay to teching Archery and proceeding all the way up to the delayed academy. (Significantly delayed; we'd have to use 26 more citizen-turns for scientists in Antioch or 27 in another city to get our second scientist.) Archery could be finished T70 under this plan, by the way.
- We could instead get the 'mids on T78 without bulbing Math; the main cost would be that we'd have to work a second plains hill mine (mine/chopped right next to the city) for a few turns instead of the gold, for a cost of (I think) [EDIT: 35] commerce.
- We could also get the 'mids on [EDIT:T79] without Math while working the gold continuously. [EDIT: Note teching Math instead of bulbing it won't complete the tech in time to speed up the 'mids.]
- I of course have no idea what any other player's timetable is for the Pyramids.
So, the next couple turns of an updated/slightly-improved version of the T76 plan:
[EDIT: This also works for the T79 no-Mathematics plan]
T61: The borders of Hesperides pop to second ring. Gower is now size 4 and works Pig + Fish + FP Cottage + FP Cottage. Antiochus resumes its Granary (with Spearman on hold) and works Cow + Fish + grass cottage + plains hill forest (0/3/0). The Worker on the cottage moves 1N to another river grassland tile and begins a Cottage. The Worker on the Furs moves 1N to another river grassland tile and begins another Cottage, but then CANCELS orders! The Worker on the river grassland forest begins to chop. Rice farm complete. (Hesperides continues to work the Copper however). Reduce science slider to 50%. T62: Masonry complete; begin Writing and reduce science slider to 0%. Gower is now size 5 and works Pig + Fish + Cottage + Cottage + Cottage. Antiochus WHIPS its Granary (4 -> 3) and works Cow + Fish + plains forest hill (0/3/0). Tyre is now size 4; it begins the Pyramids (with its Axeman on hold) and works Pig + Gold + Copper + Cottage. Hesperides works the Rice. The Worker on the Rice moves 1NW to a part-roaded river grassland tile and completes the Road. The Worker on the river grassland shared by Gower and Hesperides moves N-NE to a plains forest.
[EDIT: Removed a paragraph that was built on wrong assumptions.]
Whereas for the [EDIT: T78 plan] we would probably want to go with...
T61: The borders of Hesperides pop to second ring. Gower is now size 4 and works Pig + Fish + FP Cottage + FP Cottage. Antiochus resumes its Granary (with Spearman on hold) and works Cow + Fish + grass cottage + plains hill forest (0/3/0). The Worker on the cottage moves NW-SW-SW to join the Worker on the part-mined plains hill. The Worker on the Furs moves 1N to another river grassland tile and begins another Cottage, but then CANCELS orders! The Worker on the river grassland forest begins to chop. Rice farm complete. (Hesperides continues to work the Copper however). Reduce science slider to 50%. T62: Masonry complete; begin Writing and reduce science slider to 0%. Gower is now size 5 and works Pig + Fish + Cottage + Cottage + Cottage. Antiochus WHIPS its Granary (4 -> 3) and works Cow + Fish + plains forest hill (0/3/0). Tyre is now size 4; it begins the Pyramids (with its Axeman on hold) and works Pig + Gold + Copper + plains hill mine, as the Workers on the plains hill complete the Mine. Hesperides works the Rice. The Worker on the Rice moves 1NW to a part-roaded river grassland tile and completes the Road. The Worker on the river grassland shared by Gower and Hesperides moves N-NE to a plains forest.
Gavadeath built their fourth city this turn. They obviously want to lock down the border with Cornflakes and us (but we weren`t planning on settling that way after Cherokee was captured anyway). We really, really need to box in Gavadeath by building a city somewhere to our SE. I`d hate to see them get a solid foothold in that direction.
We`re going with the second micro plan. So it looks like t78 will be a massive turn for us if no one beats us to the Pyramids before then. Fwiw I don`t mind giving up a few beakers if that leads to a quicker build of the mids. And, we could easily go for an early Academy instead of bulbing. It`s a safe, solid play and should give us chances of a tech lead at some point. We need to be aware, however, that if we lose out on the mids we could be playing catch up for a long time to come.
In international news, our Scout continued eastwards and will keep going as long as it can. Wetbandit has poured a frankly ridiculous 150-ish EPs into us and we have to spend precious resources on keeping his graphs. And somehow he`s yet to meet another player that we know. So that`s at least part of the reason why we`re getting swamped in EPs.
Our demos are still competitive, though not as good as they were a few turns ago. We`ll get some more extra tiles to work over the next turns and hopefully we can keep up in expansion.
(May 27th, 2019, 11:43)JR4 Wrote: We need to be aware, however, that if we lose out on the mids we could be playing catch up for a long time to come.
Pursuing the 'mids as neither Exp nor Imp nor Ind nor Pro means we'll be playing catch-up on food and hammers whether we land the wonder or not - but tech is a different story. If someone completes the Pyramids when we're nearly done with them, we get ~~300 failgold, as if we'd been building wealth with a x1.5 modifier, which can fuel deficit research for quite a while at this stage of the game. (And if 'mids fall early, we get less failgold but we've sunk fewer turns and hammers into them!)
In any case, it sounds like the plan is to let Tyre take care of the 'mids, with Workers assigned to chops and mines there as needed to get the wonder by T78, and bend the rest of the empire to expansion, specifically to the southeast, trying to plant a city down there even before planting for the horses. Is that right?
[EDIT: If so - that is, if we want to put tech and hammers into expansion rather than into speeding up our Academy as much as possible - then] here's a small refinement to the microplan in case T62 comes in before I can post a more complete extension; the only change from the above is that we start Archery (and leave the slider at 50% for another turn) so we can finish it ASAP for more security and to get units out more cheaply in the future:
T62: Masonry complete; begin Archery (with the science slider still at 50%). Gower is now size 5 and works Pig + Fish + Cottage + Cottage + Cottage. Antiochus WHIPS its Granary (4 -> 3) and works Cow + Fish + plains forest hill (0/3/0). Tyre is now size 4; it begins the Pyramids (with its Axeman on hold) and works Pig + Gold + Copper + plains hill mine, as the Workers on the plains hill complete the Mine. Hesperides works the Rice. The Worker on the Rice moves 1NW to a part-roaded river grassland tile and completes the Road. The Worker on the river grassland shared by Gower and Hesperides moves N-NE to a plains forest.
Tentative partial plan continuation assuming we want 'mids by T68 but otherwise want to push expansion:
T62: Masonry complete; begin Archery (with the science slider still at 50%). Gower is now size 5 and works Pig + Fish + Cottage + Cottage + Cottage. Antiochus WHIPS its Granary (4 -> 3) and works Cow + Fish + plains forest hill (0/3/0). Tyre is now size 4; it begins the Pyramids (with its Axeman on hold) and works Pig + Gold + Copper + plains hill mine, as the Workers on the plains hill complete the Mine. Hesperides works the Rice. The Worker on the Rice moves 1NW to a part-roaded river grassland tile and completes the Road. The Worker on the river grassland shared by Gower and Hesperides moves N-NE to a plains forest. T63: Granary complete at Antiochus, which resumes its Spearman, works Cow + Fish + grass Cottage, and turns Avoid Growth ON! Gower works Pig + Fish + FP Cottage + FP Cottage + Sugar. The Worker on a roaded grassland near Hesperides moves 1NE to the furs and resumes building a Camp. One of the Workers on the mine moves 1E to a grassland forest; the other moves N-E to a roaded grass hill and begins a Mine, but then CANCELS orders!The Worker on the plains forest chops. Chop near Hesperides complete. Hesperides works a grass forest hill (1/2/0) because granaries are just that good. Set research slider to 100%! T64: Archery complete; Granary complete at Hesperides, which begin an Archer, working the Rice. Tech Writing(?) and set research slider to 0%! TURN OFF Avoid Growth at Antiochus! The Worker between the Furs and Copper moves 1E to the Furs and helps to complete the Camp. THEN Gower works Pig + Fish + Cottage + Cottage + Cottage + Sugar. Antiochus works Cow + Fish + grassland forest (2/1/0). The Worker on the roaded grass hill moves SE-S to the plains hill forest nearest Tyre. The Worker on the grassland forest begins a Road.
T65: Gower is now size 7 and begins a Settler (with Spearman on hold) and works Fish + Cottage + Cottage + Cottage + Sugar + Forest, with one Angry Citizen (who eats no food while building a Settler). Antiochus is now size 4 and works Pig + Cow + Fish + plains forest hill (0/3/0). Chop complete near Gower. Road complete near Antiochus. The Worker nearest Tyre begins a Road. The Workers on the furs ... see below.
What the Workers on the furs do on T65, and what they and other Workers do on subsequent turns, depends on where we want to plant our next city (Thaliard). We won't have much military power by the time it's planted, wherever it is, though we'll be working on that....
Another double turn. The turn pace has been really good so far. I guess having fewer players does wonders. And speaking of wonders - we started our big project on t62 which will hopefully give us access to awesome civics in 15 turns. I estimate our chances of landing the Pyramids at about 50 %. I`d like to say 80 % but we all know that Cornflakes badly wants them as well.
I do like the balanced expansion path that allows us to stake a claim deep SE. If we can get out another Settler in a reasonable time frame there is no reason why we shouldn`t be able to lock Gavadeath out of the area. We`re not that desperate for Horses with this approach as metals and Archery will hopefully keep us safe. Getting out another pair of Spears from Gower and Antiochus will surely deter any random aggression from our neighbours. We`re connecting our second luxury on t64 (Furs) that will allow Gower to grow to size 7 in the next couple of turns.
The demos show that someone.. has a crop yield of 63! That`s way better than our 47 but at least we have another [Edit: 4] food from Hesperides` Rice next turn as we`re working a 1/2/0 tile instead to complete the Granary. I trust that it`s the best solution long term as getting a Granary built will allow for rapid growth (and Hesperides has lots of food and lots of spare happiness).
(May 28th, 2019, 11:54)JR4 Wrote: The demos show that someone.. has a crop yield of 63! That`s way better than our 47 but at least we have another [Edit: 4] food from Hesperides` Rice next turn as we`re working a 1/2/0 tile instead to complete the Granary. I trust that it`s the best solution long term as getting a Granary built will allow for rapid growth (and Hesperides has lots of food and lots of spare happiness).
Also lots of good tiles to grow onto, yeah. But we're likely to have a low crop yield for a while because of our Pyramids push. Tyre is working three zero-food tiles, and will continue to do so for many turns to come.
And here's a further-updated still-tentative microplan extension. Note I haven't seriously examined alternatives this in depth; it's entirely possible that we should be building more mines and fewer cottages, or even chopping more forests, among other possibilities:
T64: Archery complete; Granary complete at Hesperides, which begin an Archer, working the Rice. Tech Writing(?) and set research slider to 0%! TURN OFF Avoid Growth at Antiochus! The Worker between the Furs and Copper moves 1E to the Furs and helps to complete the Camp. THEN Gower works Pig + Fish + Cottage + Cottage + Cottage + Sugar. Antiochus works Cow + Fish + grassland forest (2/1/0). The Worker on the roaded grass hill moves SE-S to the plains hill forest nearest Tyre. The Worker on the grassland forest begins a Road.
T65: Gower is now size 7 and begins a Settler (with Spearman on hold) and works Fish + Cottage + Cottage + Cottage + Sugar + Forest, with one Angry Citizen (who eats no food while building a Settler). Antiochus is now size 4 and works Pig + Cow + Fish + plains forest hill (0/3/0). Chop complete near Gower. Road complete near Antiochus. The Worker nearest Tyre begins a Road. The Workers on the furs begin and complete a Road. T66: Spearman complete at Antiochus, which is now size 5, starts a Worker, and works Pig + Cow + Fish + FP Cottage, with one Angry Citizen (who eats no food while building a Worker). Gower WHIPS its Settler (7 -> 4) and works Fish + (the other) FP Cottage + Sugar + Grass Cottage. The Worker on the plains hill forest completes a Road. The Worker near Gower moves 1SW to a part-roaded river grassland tile and completes the Road. The Workers on the Furs move S-SE to a grass forest hill. The Worker on a grassland forest moves E-SE-SE to a roaded river grassland and begins a Cottage, but then CANCELS orders! T67: Settler complete at Gower, which resumes its Spearman, working Pig + Fish + FP Cottage + FP Cottage. The Settler moves S-SE-SW-S to Hesperides. Antiochus WHIPS its Worker (5 -> 3) and works Cow + Fish + Grass Cottage. Hesperides is now size 2 and works Rice + FP Cottage. The Workers on the grass forest hill begin and complete a Road. The Worker nearest Gower moves 1SW to a part-cottaged river grassland tile and resumes the cottage. The Worker on a roaded river grassland tile near Hesperides moves 1S to a floodplain and begins a Cottage. The Worker on the plains hill forest moves E-SE to the just-vacated roaded river grassland and resumes the cottage there, but then CANCELS orders! Increase science rate to 100%! T68: Worker and Spearman complete at Antiochus and Gower respectively. Gower is now size 5 and begins an Archer, working Pig + Fish + FP Cottage + FP Cottage + Sugar. Antiochus starts another Worker. Settler moves 3SE to the site of Thaliard. The Workers on the grass forest hill move 1SE to a river grassland tile and begin and complete a Road. New Worker from Antiochus moves SW-S-SE to a plains forest hill and resumes building a Mine. The Workers nearest Hesperides move 1S to a Floodplain and begin a Cottage.
One other note, though it's not urgent right now: Is that "Chop 2/3" sign correct? (And do you know how to check on this sort of thing with a Worker who's already moved?) I had supposed that forest had only received one chop so far.... (Relatedly, the river grassland 2E of the same tile has already had 2 turns invested in a cottage, right?)
