RB PBEM #2 - Justinian (SPOILERS!)

[pocketbeetle]

Makes sense.

What would you get out of OB with Krill?
Do you have foreign trade routes in all cities currently?

[Dreylin]

What would you get out of OB with Krill?
Do you have foreign trade routes in all cities currently?

Second question first: yes, I have sufficient routes for all my cities since I have connections with all the others. I also have enough cities on separate landmasses to get intercontinental routes to SL's "mainland" cities.

What would I get; to explore Krill's land and get a look at his cities.

[pocketbeetle]

Okay, so assuming that attacking Krill is still possibly on the table (I havent seen you rule it out yet):

How are you going to get the info on Krill's cities without trading maps directly with him?

Are you intending to map him out yourself with Caravels and Sentry units? Sneaky diplomatic wheeling and dealing?
Or just cross that bridge when Astronomy and Guilds finally come in?

[Dreylin]

Okay, so assuming that attacking Krill is still possibly on the table (I havent seen you rule it out yet):

How are you going to get the info on Krill's cities without trading maps directly with him?

Are you intending to map him out yourself with Caravels and Sentry units? Sneaky diplomatic wheeling and dealing?
Or just cross that bridge when Astronomy and Guilds finally come in?

Well, the plan was/is to grab Darrell's & SL's maps and then send some Caravels over there to fill in the gaps / confirm city placements.

[pocketbeetle]

Cheers, lurking with interest =)

[Dreylin]

I'd forgotten it was a Bank Holiday in the UK when SL stopped by for a chat:

Square: Hey Dreylin, You're up early!

10 minutes

Square: OK - not up yet - Thanks for gifting the settler.
Also - I'd cxertainly be up for fued - Paper deal and I think the best way to make up the difference would be gold unless you have anything else in mind?
catch you later on.

14 minutes

me: not a great night's sleep, unfortunately

Square: ah

me: how much gold would you have in mind?

Square: what is the beaker difference?

me: I'd rather find a way to make it up in tech tbh
feud-paper?
100 iirc

Square: ok - I can do that
I am going to be heading to philo next
what about you?

me: not sure after Paper
but I do have Drama in hand
& Theology

Square: Drama is good

me: that pushes it 200 in the other direction....

Square: It becomes hard to match bits and bobs this far into the tech tree...

me: yeah, indeed

Square: TBH - I'd be willing to just accept a fued - paper
so long as we continue to trade for the foreseeable future
an opportunity will arise to make it up

me: I'm happy with that too
(especially since it's in my favour for now )

Square: I have two tech paths in mind...
Lib
and to get up to CHemistry
Workshops can be very useful and with caste guilds and chemistry they start to become quite good...

me: Hmmm

Square: production is always going to be the hurdle on this map.

me: Well I've somewhat solved that for us

Square: Oh - i know a way to make up the difference!
yeah - but more is always good! ;-)

me: 'nother Settler?

Square: can i borrow your stone shortly?
I want to build maoi

me: After I finish UoS, I don't see why not

Square: cool - I won't be starting it for a few turns yet so that would fit in nicely.
I want some more missionaries first
how long until paper finishes?

me: 3t I think
(maybe only 2, can't quite remember)

Square: cool
HOw's life knowing were krill is?

me: nervous!

Square: haha

me: BTW, can I influence you to not trade your map to Krill?
since he can't be bothered to explore on his own yet

Square: consider me influenced.

me: cool

Square: I don't want to give him TR's he doesn't need!

me: He offered me OB conditional on a Map Trade ... I don't need routes from him either!

Square: There sin't any way of knowing if someone has traded maps is there?
I mean - Darrell has de-fogged a link to us
he could trade them to krill

me: true

Square: wonder if we can persuade him not to also

me: I think it would show up as being able to trade resources with Krill
I'll have a word with him about it

Square: I can already

me: has he spoken to you recently?

Square: if i wasn't at war with yaz of course
nope
sorry - you mean krill right?

me: No, Darrell

Square: ah - yeah a little bit
not too much though - I have been a bit quiet myself to be honest

me: busy?

Square: I am trying to not get too involved in darrell and krill and yeah - i have been quite busy - but that seems to be the norm atm!

me: Well I keep trying to get Darrell off the fence onto our side, but I don't know if it'll work

Square: Has darrell been friendly to you all game?

me: pretty much, yeah

Square: He is in a tricky position

me: certainly

Square: It is easier for krill to attack through darrell than you since he has to wait till astro to get to you really

me: (probably)

Square: That is why it makes perfect sense for darrell to be in bed with krill

me: well and with Yaz attacking, he needed to deal to stay alive

Square: If we don't see some strain on their relationship soon then i would eat my hat if they weren't allied in some way

me: yeah

Square: lets wait and see
Darrell took a hit on the power graph recently! Yaz is putting up a stiff fight!

me: Well you saw the GGs dying in the log, right?

Square: yep

me: Yaz told me that one was Darrell's WE

Square: ooo

me: don't know which side the other was on
(probably Yaz)

Square: yeah

me: but then he got a new one ... with Great Wall help now

Square: yaz build the GW so is going to be getting a few now - he is IMP too!

me: yeah

Square: GW was a nice move really

me: cheap with Stone and grabbed in a lull
worth a few troops though

Square: yep

me: *cost a few troops

Square: but with 200% GG points now in his own lands...

me: true

Square: He may struggle when maces start coming though

me: yeah, that should be the end of him

Square: BTW - I am building the SoZ

me: but he's held Darrell & Ruff back for quite a while
Ah, I have no interest

Square: cool

me: 'nother good disincentive

Square: with ivory, OR and forge and CS it is really cheap

me: yeah
You GE'd the Sistine?

Square: yeah - I considered slow building it since i had exclusivity
but those hammers were better spent elsewhere

me: ah, that was the deal you made with Darrell
he does like to be certain that guy

Square: also - it would have an age in The Oval and i needed some help in that area on the culture front!
yeah - he does

me: yeah, our borders shouldn't have too much trouble settling

Square: nah

me: BTW, I wanted to ask about another Wonder

Square: fire

me: do you have designs on Angkor Wat?
Would fit pretty nicely with my budding Temple economy


Square: Not really - it is the priest based one right?
yeah

me: yeah +1h on preists

Square: And GP points...

me: less important to me now
I'll have my Priest soon enough

Square: even so - i plan to spread bud all over and - with you permission - we could send it ruffs way too...

me: but since I'll be building temples for AP hammers & UoS beakers anyway....

Square: yeha
Don't really want darrell or krill to get the ap bonus too

me: not as yet, no
though I got spontaneous spread to Yaz!

Square: really?
I didn't notice
none to me yet!

me: yeah, his replacement 2nd city iirc

Square: ah ok - i can't see that one

me: Oh, I meant to ask what happened to Headingly?

Square: I renamed it to Galle

me: <shock>

Square: It fitted better with my naming theme

me: Oh, I thought it was English test grounds
or even first class grounds

Square: On our island yes

me: ah
shouldn't it have got an Aussie name being near Ruff?

Square: That one is Sri Lanka now and my other island is Aus

And then we wandered off into even-less relevant chatting.

One thing I just thought of is that should he score Taoism, he's likely to want a Priest himself; so maybe if I land a third in the future he'll be interested in trading Great People....

[Dreylin]

t88 - don't accept Krill's offered OB.

Constantinople: Forge - Lighthouse (1t)
Nicaea: Worker - Buddhist Temple

New Worker moves to chop/mine the hill to SW of the city.

Tweak the tiles at Antioch to complete the Temple this turn.

Paper completes at EoT @70% ... current break-even is 30%, so some economic buildings are definitly in order!

[Dreylin]

An evening chat with Darrell:

Darrell: I think Yaz got Construction last turn...I'll send it to you this turn.

me: sounds good

Darrell: Were you by any chance funding his research of it? Because he teched it quite rapidly. I think it was Krill but wanted to confirm it wasn't you.

me: Nope, not me

Darrell: Hmm...as a PBEM veteran is it legal fo rme to load old saves and see what I can figure out?

me: as I said before; me = strictly neutral

Darrell: I was pretty sure it was Krill

me: Re-loading old saves - certainly
I do so frequently, as I know Ruff also does
great way of info-gathering
& being able to play faster & come back for info later

Darrell: Yeah...I bet I can figure it out by looking at his gold and Krill's
there was something fishy when Krill brokered our monarchy deal
I said make sure Yaz gave him teh 18 gold delta, and Krill was very specific that Yaz gave him 18 gold
the wording was kind of odd, and made me wonder if Krill gave him the gold first

me: Have you started Optics yet?

Darrell: No...that's another thing he seems to be slow rolling Machinery so I can't start it
I'm just saving gold
I was planning on not trading withg him the next dozen turns or so and now I'm sure of it.

me: he told me it would be finished this/next turn
he wants Paper from me

Darrell: YOu can guess why he's saving gold

me: well you're paying him now, right?

Darrell: No, not a dime.
He owes me Machinery for CS. And I owe him Construction.

me: oh, I thought Shrine gold

Darrell: oh yeah
that's true
4 gold/turn for that
but no funding that we didn't agree to
I got to run and put my kids to bed...but thanks for confirming what I already suspected.

me: Oh quick Q: are you planning to trade maps with him?

Darrell: its a catch 22

me: (is hoping not)

Darrell: if I trade with him I can't trade with you, if I trade with you I can't trade with him
I was thinking of gving him my map and you my map one turn
then getting your maps the following turns
of course, I have his land pretty well mapped out

me: why do you want to give him your map?

Darrell: he alreayd knows it pretty much, and I want to confirm his city locations just in case
and, I'm pretty sure he's got some islands i don't know about

me: No, he doesn't

Darrell: I'm curious whats on them
You sure?

me: remember you have routes through to SL & I mapped out
which he likely doesn't
Just go looking after Optics
that's my plan

21 minutes

Darrell: yeah I should whip a tireme now then cash upgrade it

[Dreylin]

t89 - Construction comes in from Darrell, Feudalism/Paper trade with SL, and Yaz offers me Construction and 30g with no strings!? I grab him for a quick chat and it seems he's expecting to be eliminated shortly and is nominating me as his "heir":

me: hey there

yazilliclick: hey

me: you offered me a trade?

yazilliclick: Yeah. Take it you want, no strings attached. I'm expecting to be killed fairly soon.

me: wow
so you're giving your gold away

yazilliclick: I've got a mass of war elephants, dog soldiers, axes and catapults outside my capital right now that outnumber my defense.
Nothing I can research very quickly any more anyways.

me: well keep it for the moment, unless you think you'll lose all three cities this turn?

yazilliclick: nah won't lose three.

me: so no need to chuck it to me yet

yazilliclick: k I'll hold it for a bit longer. Better hope I don't just forget it though :P

me: heh

Paper - Divine Right (holding tech at 0%)

Constantinople: Lighthouse - University of Sankore (6t)
Thessalonica: Lighthouse - Library
Adrianople: something (pop-up says Axeman, but I think it was probbaly a Buddhist building) - Market
Antioch: Buddhist Temple - Forge

Infra builds mostly going on at the moment since there's still quite a bit of space available under the happy cap; probably the next round of builds will consist of some MP Warriors as time is getting on for me to hook up the metals - Iron at least will be needed at some point not too far off.

Spread Buddhism to Trebizond and once again the nation is fully Buddhist.

[Dreylin]

Long-ish chat with Darrell knocking out some terms:

Darrell: Let's trade maps . I will give you a no trade clause with krill

me: Neither of us will trade our maps to Krill?
time-limited, or game-long?

Darrell: until the other party allows

me: (or is dead, right?)

Darrell: coprrect
dont kil me

me: heh
did we ever ctually agree on the terms of a NAP?
terms include screenshots of territory?

Darrell: sorry man work called
I got the impression you didnt want a NAP with me from the last conversation

me: oh
well I was thinking about maybe just a straight time-limited one
no renewal/cool-down clauses
you seemed to really want one

Darrell: thats fine with me
yeah

me: at least up to a point
so maybe 30t?

Darrell: its a bit of a hang up in terms of cooperating with you
I can live with that
my problem is if I am overtly cooperating with you, Krill will turn the evil eye on me
and I just want a bit of assurance

me: well if we were cooperating, I'd want a NAP for the duration kind-of thing

Darrell: yeah, that's agreeable

me: we are talking close cooperation

Darrell: I understand what you meant
I think the first task has to be on the tech front
because I cnat contribute on the military front

me: sure

Darrell: and, in reality, you've been my most consistent trading partner
I've traded with eveyrone but most of the time I've ended up lining a deal up with you first.

me: except the first lot

Darrell: yeah, but I tried!
I recall sending you a "warning" note that you were in dagner of being left out of the first round...

me: seems like I managed OK

Darrell: yeah, you did fine...its funny cause I spent a ton of time trying to make sure I didn't get worked over and you just kind of let it come to you

me: heh
well imo Yaz was the one screwed by the early grab for techs
got stuck on Monarchy which required lots of up-front research

Darrell: He kind of got worked over by the geo-political situaiton too

me: & then at war so would have been better on military techs

Darrell: He was this close to taking me out but all he ended up doing was getting 3 civs aligned against him

me: I still don't understand really why he declared on Ruff that second time

Darrell: He thinks Ruff tipped me off about his impending invasion

me: aha
but it'd have to be a very-finely worded NAP to prohibit that

Darrell: Ruff didn't break any deal, or at least any deal that I'm aware of. Yaz will read my lurker thread soon enough I hope :D

me: heh
So, did we come to a deal?
it's t90 iirc
so 30t NAP would be until t120

Darrell: 30t NAP? Map trade with no trade to Krill unless allowed by the other party (implied allowance if dead)
That works for me.

me: including screenshots

Darrell: including screenshots

me: OK, sounds good to me
how about non-Krill map trades?

Darrell: I have different categories of allies...you are in the bucket where I honor spirit and not just letter so you don't really need to specify things like screenshots
Allowed I think
I definitely want to trade with SL and Ruff.

me: *but obviously with associated non-Krill clauses

Darrell: If you don't want them to get your map info, I will trade with them first

me: I'm probably planning to trade with SL myslef

Darrell: Okay so the question is ruff then

me: & Ruff I have no problem as long as I can get his map as well

Darrell: I doubt he will have a problem with that. I will ping him if you like.

me: and as long as they are willing to not trade my map to Krill

Darrell: Yeah that's not going to be a problem
He serioulsy makes more beakers than the rest of us at max research

me: eeek

Darrell: And I assume you noticed he slow rolled machinery

me: Yeah, now has ~15,000,000 gold in the bank
plus what you're sending him

Darrell: 5/turn

me: bet he was disappointed about the third Priest though

Darrell: heh-heh

So the framework of an anti-Krill alliance seems to be forming.