RBP3 [SPOILERS] - Friendly Kittens (Ragnar of Maya)

[Maniac Marshall]

I disagree with working the gold the next 2 turns, but I didn't change it back because I figured it would screw up your microplan. If you don't have a major objection, I wish you'd change it back. We're two turns from growth and could start working it then.

I think it should work it's the FP for 2 turns, grow, work all the current tiles plus the gold for 2 turns, then whip the forge (with 2 hammers to spare). At that point you could debate working the gold or the FP.

I've already requested the corn for wheat trade. England told me that was fine. They haven't accepted yet but should shortly.

However, as there is only 5:30 on the clock, and you've probably invested a bunch of time rewriting the micro plan, you may not even see this or feel like you want to re-rewite a microplan at this point.

[RefSteel]

First of all: Happy birthday, Maniac!!! Good heavens, our birthdays are just six days apart!

Since I saw no objections, I moved Prrsha 1N, revealing no new barbs, and moved Krant back onto the pigs, meaning we now have a shock chariot on our road network. Gratha should also be moved next turn (but had moved this turn already).

On Temminck: We should be able to get Engineering in [EDIT: 8] turns either way, and can't get it sooner with any microplan I'd approve, so I switched back to the floodplain as requested. I don't think we'll need to whip the forge, but we'll burn that bridge when we cross it. (Mixing my WHAT-aphors, now?)

Hukawng Valley is making me sad because its only hammers come from the whip, which is not very good for building wonders like the National Epic. (Desert hills don't count; they wouldn't speed things up even if we could spare the 6+ worker turns apiece to improve them.) If it's eventually going to be a drafting camp, we DON'T want to put the NE there; we're not going to stop wanting great people when we get Nationalism. Kilrah will get the HE a LOT faster than Hukawng Valley gets its NE; HE is the cheaper wonder, Kilrah has actual forests ... and Kilrah *is* a production city. If anyone has a better suggestion for the NE, I'm definitely listening....

On maces: The tech pace of this game is ridiculous. I suspect we'll never use a mace if we build one; if we start slow-building one in Feng Shui now, he'll probably complete as a rifle. There are only so many things we can do at a time; something has to give, and my preference is to leave military units as hammers in the queue until they're actually needed. Queued hammers don't cost hundreds of gold to upgrade. Note also that the tech pace means commerce is extremely important. Gold for upgrades is going to be scarce for most of the game, so most units that become obsolete are going to stay that way. Naturally, we DO need units, but garrison/fogbusting units can be anything, we have enough to cover the barbs, and I believe in defense through diplomacy and the power of a Potential Military.

All that said, if I can see anything like a list of priorities in terms of things to produce in the next few or many turns, that would be terrific. Even if maces are priority 1, before workers, Blue Dot Settler, HE, tech, and everything else. I can plan for it if you want me to, regardless of whether I agree.

[Maniac Marshall]

First of all: Happy birthday, Maniac!!! Good heavens, our birthdays are just six days apart!

On Temminck: We should be able to get Engineering in [EDIT: 8] turns either way, and can't get it sooner with any microplan I'd approve, so I switched back to the floodplain as requested. I don't think we'll need to whip the forge, but we'll burn that bridge when we cross it. (Mixing my WHAT-aphors, now?)

Hukawng Valley is making me sad because its only hammers come from the whip, which is not very good for building wonders like the National Epic. (Desert hills don't count; they wouldn't speed things up even if we could spare the 6+ worker turns apiece to improve them.) If it's eventually going to be a drafting camp, we DON'T want to put the NE there; we're not going to stop wanting great people when we get Nationalism.

Is there anywhere else you suggest for the NE. As far as I can see, we don't have a NE city unless we get green dot, which does have five (albit desert) hills, which is dubious. I was going to check with Ruff in a few days if we were ok to settle green or not, but now I definitely want to wait a few more days because I seem to have detected some annoyance in his last email.

I don't know what the magic number of surplus food is, but I know it's possible to generate enough food to be able to draft every turn and still keep the pop up. If we irrigated everything , every FP beyond the magic food # could go to running a specialist. Maybe it can't get that high, I dono.

Kilrah will get the HE a LOT faster than Hukawng Valley gets its NE; HE is the cheaper wonder, Kilrah has actual forests ... and Kilrah *is* a production city. If anyone has a better suggestion for the NE, I'm definitely listening....[quote=RefSteel]

Again, maybe green. I'll check with Ruff this weekend. I think regardless we want to grow HV like mad with irrigation right now anyhow because it'll have to whip itself nuts at the beginning.

BTW, england thinks we can borrow marble from Carthage for 10 turns to build HE faster. I have not asked them about it yet.

[quote=RefSteel] On maces: The tech pace of this game is ridiculous. I suspect we'll never use a mace if we build one; if we start slow-building one in Feng Shui now, he'll probably complete as a rifle. There are only so many things we can do at a time; something has to give, and my preference is to leave military units as hammers in the queue until they're actually needed. Queued hammers don't cost hundreds of gold to upgrade. Note also that the tech pace means commerce is extremely important. Gold for upgrades is going to be scarce for most of the game, so most units that become obsolete are going to stay that way. Naturally, we DO need units, but garrison/fogbusting units can be anything, we have enough to cover the barbs, and I believe in defense through diplomacy and the power of a Potential Military.

Well, I think that's a little bit of an exaggeration, but not much. Do keep in mind however that 2 turn outt of date military whips 4 turn out of date military so we do need some units from each gen.

All that said, if I can see anything like a list of priorities in terms of things to produce in the next few or many turns, that would be terrific. Even if maces are priority 1, before workers, Blue Dot Settler, HE, tech, and everything else. I can plan for it if you want me to, regardless of whether I agree.

Woha, WHEN did I say they were priority #1? I said I didn't think we could afford to wait 15 turns to start making them.

I think I should give up making suggestions as of now and just let you run things, but I'll respond one more time. Yes, I think we could use a couple of them before rifles... Kilrah with it's stable should make Knights once we have the tech. The two workers in production now make 11 I think?, and while that isn't enough, we don't have enough of ANYTHING the rate tech is going so we're going to have to make due imo. Your worker 12 needs to be a settler or we'll probably lose Blue Dot. If you'd rather have the worker than the Blue Dot site, then make another worker.

[RefSteel]

I hate the internet sometimes.

Woha, WHEN did I say they were priority #1? I said I didn't think we could afford to wait 15 turns to start making them.

I know; I was intentionally exaggerating, which never works online unless you go to severe extremes and use all-caps and lots of smilies and things. Sorry. My point was that I'm willing to assign them ANY priority you suggest, but I can't make out which they should be. We'll definitely start making 'em soon. I don't know how many we'll *finish* in 15 turns though.

I think I should give up making suggestions as of now and just let you run things,

Please, please, please, please don't give up making suggestions. My whole point was that I want to follow your recommendations but am having trouble sorting out which of them has highest priority. Because I'm not that good at this, I can't figure out a way to grow our cities and get a settler for blue dot and a semi-decent number of workers and multiple maces and the HE and the NE and an academy and a stable for Kilrah and knight(s), in the next fifteen turns, while also researching.

Actually ... I think in *fifteen* turns, I can get almost all of that except the NE. If "a couple of maces" means two, and we don't need them in the next five turns, and we skimp on workers ... I'll see what I can do. But if e.g. we *do* need a mace in the next five turns, that's the sort of thing that whoever is building the microplan (I still can't believe I was idiot enough to move things around on T100 and take over that duty) needs to know so it can be worked in. I realize you've been telling me, and you feel like I'm asking the same questions you've already answered again and again. Maybe because I'm too new to cIV, especially MP, I often just don't understand your answers properly. Like, I'll say, "We can get a mace from the cap by whipping it T108 is that okay?" and you say yeah, that's fine, and then I say, "Hmm ... looked at it, and we could get the same mace without a whip by T110," and you seem then (to me) to be saying we're not getting enough maces, so either I'm not explaining correctly that it's a 1 turn difference, or the one turn makes a big difference, or I'm missing the point entirely, which is likely.

Let me try to explain my "planning" (such as it is) better: After the two workers already in production, we'll make a settler before any more workers. I heard you say that, and I put that into my plans, and totally failed to say so. Errr. Sorry. By the way, if you want to switch one of the workers now in production to a settler (the one with no hammers invested yet, preferably) I'll figure out how to make that work too.

Kilrah will make Knights once it has forge+rax+HE+stable. Maces will come out of the capital and Pride Rock (probably one each?), prior (I think) to the HE going up in Kilrah.

Note that all of this is stuff I've been working on for days; you said that stuff, and I got it, and have been working on it. I perceived changes in what you were asking for, which may not have been the case, or may have been in reaction to things I said. I pointed out what I considered to be reasons to do certain things differently, to make sure you'd consider them, mainly. I communicated very poorly. I keep repeating questions because I'm dreading I'll plan for a mace in 8t and one in 12 (or something) and five turns from now something terrible will happen and you'll say "We should have had a mace now like I told you," when I didn't realize that's what you meant. Or that I'll stifle growth to get a mace in 3 turns, and find out you didn't even think we needed one that soon, as long as we were working on one and would have a couple eventually.

What's new (right now) is realizing just how long it's going to take to get the NE. Like, if we started running scientists someplace now, we'd get our second GS around the NE was finished. This is assuming we DO get marble. The best place for the NE, I think, is a place with actual food resources and lots of grassland (not floodplains). I realize there aren't many places like that on this map. Drafting every turn at the NE city is hopeless unless the food levels are obscene. HV will eventually be able to draft (rifles) every turn if it gets the globe, but would be able to run (I think it's) one specialist while doing so, at most.

[Maniac Marshall]

That's a lot of stuff to respond to, and I'm not going to take an hour to go point by point.

I never suggested the NE was a priority. That's something that would be nice...

You're a lot better at this game than I am. I'm not down on myself, exagerating or any of that stuff. I'm staring a fact. As such we probably should do what you want to do most or all of the time.

Lets make this easier. Since I don't have access to the game here, this is from memory:

Fierias is building a worker, which is done now since the turn rolled I believe. Next 3 things out of there should probably be a Mace, a Settler, and a Missionary, not necessarily in that order.

PR is building a worker. The next 3 things out of there should probably be the holkan, a mace, and a knight.

Temminck is building a Forge. After that it should probably build an "obsolete" unit or two. After we get the scientist and can return the workers to working tiles,that place will have a lot of extra food and should probably build some workers with maybe a whip to speed them up.

FS needs to keep growing like a weed and build its forge. That forge is a "forever" project for it because it's so hammer challenged, so I dono WHAT we'll want to build there next.

Kilrah should build the missionary for the cap, a forge, barracks, HE, and then units forever.

HV should just grow for now and we'll worry about what it builds later.

Now, I'm not a very good player. That's half the reason I didn't want to be this involved to start with (The other being that I knew I was going to be gone most of the time from the last 5 days of May till somewhere around July 10th). I know that I'm not that good, so take what I've said with a grain of salt and if you dissagree, just do whatever you think is best.

[RefSteel]

You're a lot better at this game than I am.

This would be a lot easier to believe if you'd stop always being right all the time. Barb axe appeared pretty much exactly where you thought/feared it would be (1SW of the cows). Fortunately, as I think you also suggested, Jalthi is all healed up and can be positioned to take care of things (and earn his 10th xp). Dr. Seuss, even injured, will have 98.6% odds on the warrior who showed up last turn. Note I've done nothing so far except to move our fogbusting warriors; I'd like to wait until tomorrow morning to do so, if possible, so I can finalize (and finally post) an updated microplan. Yes, there's a chance things could change this turn. (sigh)

I'll try to mostly follow those build suggestions. I do want a monastery in Fierias ASAP though (and Temminck and FS once they get religion) for the 10% beaker bonus and AP hammers. Also, Kilrah will probably get a Stable at some point.

...just do whatever you think is best.

What I think is best? Well, that's what I really *wanted* to post earlier today. I'll make that my NEXT post.

[RefSteel]

The Mayans seem pleased about something.

They're having some kind of parade!



Even the Alkari are getting in on the action!
(And you thought they didn't like Kittens...)



Cinco de Mayo, you say? Isn't that Ruff's people's holiday?

No, no, this is Cinco de MAYA!

And of what momentous event is Cinco de MAYA a celebration?

Who could provoke such outpourings of joy?

Why...

LOOK! Up in the sky! It's a plane!

It's a bird!

It's a frog!

...

A frog?



Happy birthday, Maniac!


(*CRASH!!!*)

[Maniac Marshall]

All I can say is the previous post is made of win. Thanks!

[RefSteel]

All I can say is the previous post is made of win. Thanks!

You're very welcome! It took a little while to get all the right pictures and put it together, but making it made me very happy.

On turn 107: We've got about 9 hours before the turn rolls, so there'll be plenty of time to play after work today. I did make some of our more definitely-not-changing moves (farming the corn, some forest chops, and moving a handful of military units to confirm absence of, or prepare to attack, incoming hostiles). However I'm hoping to get some feedback on something before we finish playing the turn:

Assuming we can borrow marble from somebody, my most-current plan gets the Heroic Epic in Kilrah on Turn 118 (it'll still lack stables, though we'll be able to fix that quickly). I believe I can speed that up by two turns (maybe even three) if I assign two more workers to the project immediately (for a total of four). This will of course have a wide-ranging impact - basically slowing growth (and the resulting production and research) at the capital and Feng Shui (Temminck also loses one food, but I'm not sure when/if that will delay its growth down the line; it doesn't do so soon).

My inclination is to go with growth and let HE finish on turn 118. If either of you disagrees though, let me know! (I think the hammers gained by the early HE will be similar to the number lost just by the delay of a mine at our bureau capital, but that's assuming we don't wind up needing to whip or chop units out of Kilrah ASAP.)

[Maniac Marshall]

You know, when you suggested moving Krant I almost suggested he should stay put because of all that fog east of Kilrah... well, guess what. There's an axe over there now. A really annoying axe who's going to have to be killed on a hill. I think we're going to have to move both the axe playing a zone near the cap and Krant over to cover Kilrah. We can't afford to do anything else since we have no garrison archer over there.

To make matters worse, there's an axe inbound from the north too. We're probably going to have to pull both the axe from PR and the chariot all the way up from temminck to make sure we take care of this one...

We really need another chariot. I've been reluctant to ask for a vapoware unit because we're getting maces... Tell me we don't really need another chariot. I probably worry too much, but I have these horrible visions of Kilrah getting razed X_X.