[Spoilers] PBEM 2 Lurker Discussion - No Players!

[novice]

Well AFAICT you held your own tactically, even if you made some questionable strategic decisions, yaz.

So, having read the spoiler threads, do you feel justified in NAPstabbing Ruff? What do you think of Ruff's reaction?

[Yazilliclick]

OK Yaz, not trying to beat you up here. You lasted a long time in your various wars, which was very well done.

But I still don't really understand - what would attacking darrell achieve? Let's assume that you were successful and managed to capture his capital. Then... what? You'd have to raze the city, because there was no way you would have had enough forces to take and hold the location (not with those long, over-water supply routes). Even if by some miracle you were able to take and hold his capital, that's an extreme amount of cost and unit investment to take a single city. Not to mention, unnecessarily making another enemy for the rest of the game!

I really don't want to seem like a jerk here, and I know I wasn't involved in playing this game. It just seems like you would have been much better off not launching that attack (NAP with Ruff or not!) and building up your own civ economically. Just hurting other teams doesn't really do that much to help you win the game, unless you can strengthen yourself in the process.

EDIT: If it makes you feel better, I also think Ruff has played a very poor game, and was rather dishonest diplomatically with you.

I already had the units. Only units I made were the galleys (would have made them anyways to explore so not really wasted) and you could say I made an axe but would have made one anyways for defense of new city and only made it because one of my other pre-built units couldn't make the ferry in time. So I don't think it was an extreme cost of units.

Also keep in mind that when I started this plan I thought I had Ruff as an ally and SL was giving me intel to pull it off and encouraging it. So I thought I'd have at least two friends after the move well seriously weakening my oponent in the one direction I could expand (remember had settling agreement as part of NAP with Ruff).

Couple all that with him giving me screenshot showing he had no defense and little chance of building anything quickly due to no road and probably hadn't researched wheel yet then it was too tempting... at least for me

Oh and don't worry, I'm all for criticism of how I played. Feel free to point out mistakes. I took the game as learning experience. This was only my 2nd real multiplayer game on my own after taking over for Krill in PB1, so plenty to learn.

*EDIT* Oh I think I should add: When I'm talking about it being a 'good' or 'bad' idea for the attack I'm talking from when I first made the decision and not after things started going wrong. As I've said, I should have called it all off as soon as things started to sour. Though I still would have been in trouble then probably.

[Yazilliclick]

So, having read the spoiler threads, do you feel justified in NAPstabbing Ruff? What do you think of Ruff's reaction?

Can check my thread, I bring it up in my big post there To sum up though I feel perfectly justified. I think I could debate somewhat that he broke the NAP himself but ultimately what makes me feel justified is that he outright broke the confidentiality agreement for my attack plan.

If you show yourself outright willing to break agreements like that, especially with a history of dishonesty prior, then it's ridiculous to think others can or should still be held by other agreements with you. Now I could see if it was some small trade agreement broken that was not part of a NAP deal then it may be a bit much to break a NAP in this way over it. However he broke an extremely sensitive confidentiality agreement related to military movement to try and get me killed off.

Also I think the excuse 'I didn't read it so it doesn't count' is just silly.

[T-hawk]

But I still don't really understand - what would attacking darrell achieve?

It was all about the Great Lighthouse. With practically every trade route on this map being overseas, every city coastal, and research running slightly slow in general with limited cottage land and no Financial civs, the Great Lighthouse is a huge economic swing. If Yaz could hold it, his economy is immensely strengthened. Or even if he just razes it, then everyone else benefits in comparison.

That is what drew Square Leg's interest. He had the option to help Yaz raze the GL (by withholding resources from Darrell) or help Darrell defend it. He chose the latter, in the hopes that Darrell could later pay back SL something worth more than "Great Lighthouse denial". This hasn't happened yet but might still.

[Yazilliclick]

For someone working hard to supposedly be friends with everyone, Darrell sure manages to piss a lot of people off. I wonder if Krill or anybody else is actually going to be willing to call him on it at any time and do something about it? Or are they all just going to support him right up until he wins peacefully in fear that if they don't have half Darrell on their side that they'll lose to whoever he does side with.

[T-hawk]

Krill can't attack Darrell, at least not yet. For all his wonders and GNP and score lead, a 3v1 war would hurt him more than help. Still miles to go before we see who's winning this thing.

[pocketbeetle]

Things seem to be heating up

[MWIN]

It seems like Darrel is going from all friends to all enemies mode...

[Swiss Pauli]

By playing both ends against the middle, darrell seems to have ended up in the 'Imperio Position'...which also ended in a NAPstab

[T-hawk]

Indeed. And the worst part when that happens is that nobody feels bad for you - everybody is glad to see you get what you have coming.