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[Spoilers] naufragar's fist full of pesos (Montezuma)

(May 17th, 2020, 12:57)Miguelito Wrote:
(May 16th, 2020, 19:40)naufragar Wrote: As you can see, I've given up on Monotheism.

Please don't! (How close are you,  anyway?)

I'm still very distant. Like over a dozen turns. It's possible I could still make it on the beeline, but it's brutal. I might not go to sailing, but I think I will to beat Aspi to the stone island. Since I believe he's on Scandanavia, that little island is the only option for intercontinental trade routes I've seen. It's important. frown

As for Carthage sniping my city, we have a new contender:


In the East is Elizabeth of England, confusingly named "Holland" after the player. (Holland has also renamed England to Holland and all the cities have appropriate names.) I believe those borders are his capital. He's on three cities, so he likely just hasn't pushed this far yet. I'll have two axes around the barb city to discourage vultures.

I don't know if that city will ever grow, though. Unless I missed it (which is possible), I didn't see the city working a tile.  eek Hopefully it's building a monument while working a green forest. That would make it grow at pretty much the exact time I knock out its last defenders. It's annoying to not know when it'll grow because I won't know when to send over workers to chop a badly needed monument.

Joao is doing Joao things. And woe betide.


That dip in Suite's Crop is interesting, but I don't think it's from violence. I'll be honest, I haven't been doing much cloak and dagger work in a field this big. (And violence there has been. Multiple great generals have been born so far.)
There is no way to peace. Peace is the way.
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rant


Looks like Holland and I are going to blow up the barb city so that neither of us gets it. Boo.

I know my play hasn't been tight this game, but has it really been so bad that Joao can get double my cities by turn 70?


Freaking miserable. His power's started to climb. I'll keep an eye out.

More evidence that trying for religion was a mistake:


There are already people with Writing, which is more beakers than I can imagine in my wildest dreams. Interesting that Ziankali has opened borders with Suite but not with me. Tinfoil
There is no way to peace. Peace is the way.
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Well, Joao is THE "early expansion" Leader in Civ IV BtS, so that in itself is not too curious if you ask me...
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(May 20th, 2020, 17:00)Papa Bear Wrote: Well, Joao is THE "early expansion" Leader in Civ IV BtS, so that in itself is not too curious if you ask me...

This is true. But not very comforting! lol And I guess I'm not too far behind my peers:



I led with Mfg rather than Crop because the Crop is very bad:



But my power is competitive:


If he wants to fight Montezuma in the ancient era, that's his business.

My business is, as always, the business of small injuries:


I can't help it. It's my nature. I believe that axe was about to promote. Plus I want to kill the city myself. We'll see how angry he is about this. I immediately offered a peace treaty. In the top left of that picture, you can see that SV is about to invade my borders with a galley. The capital's archer can hold off two Combat 1 axes. My western city will have spears, so that's much more dicey.

Plus Ziankali might be about to use me for free experience:


popcorn

The events are going to cost me an unhappy face:


One of those is from my pig mine burning down. rant (Pay no attention to the Build Queue of Indecision.) (Sorry Civforum people. I didn't include this picture. I think the site has a limit of 5 attachments per post?)
There is no way to peace. Peace is the way.
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Do civforum people use those same resource for same resource deals?
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(May 22nd, 2020, 10:01)Charriu Wrote: Do civforum people use those same resource for same resource deals?

Yes.

But it is of course not understood as "neverending peace". It only signals that one does not have immediate hostile intentions. One might want to do that when overlooking an empty neighbouring city from a hill or when standing next to (potential) "free XP" units.

Attacking an Axeman near a barb city might get you into trouble. "I don't want the unit to promote (and maybe take the barb city)" seems like a move that is unneccessarily hostile. Sending a peace offer right after moving a workboat through someones territory is one thing, but killing a unit without there being a discernible reason for doing so...

But it is like Lord of the Civ said. We do not know how Holland might react, as he has not played in prior Civforum PBs.
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(May 22nd, 2020, 10:56)Papa Bear Wrote: Attacking an Axeman near a barb city might get you into trouble. "I don't want the unit to promote (and maybe take the barb city)" seems like a move that is unneccessarily hostile.

I have a little bit of a tendency for thoughtless aggression. It is a personal failing. The last time I did it, Superdeath (Churchill in this game) burned my city to teach me a lesson. It seems I have not yet learned the lesson.
There is no way to peace. Peace is the way.
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Lurkers love manifestos, and it’s a lovely day out, despite the looming viral threat, so I felt like soul searching. What follows is half petulant self-justification, half confession.

Hello. My name is naufragar, and I am aggressive. Superdeath and I are kindred spirits. I’m on record saying he hasn’t been aggressive enough, in fact. I have a problem, and acknowledging it is the first step.

My litany of reflexive aggression goes back. In this PB, I just assassinated a neighbor’s axe that wasn’t doing me any harm. In my last game (PB45), I assassinated a neighbor’s warrior that wasn’t doing me any harm, and the aftermath cost me a city and my only source of horse. It probably didn’t lose me the game outright, but it certainly didn’t help. In the game before that (PB41), I was on an island, so I didn’t really get the chance to be aggressive. Wait. I remember. Rusten and Hitru on another island committed an unforgivable sin (I forget exactly what wink ) and the ensuing war I declared ruined my game. In my first game (PB38) I didn’t do anything too stupidly reckless, but I was planning to. I was going to screw with Rusten’s settling, but I had to retreat my axe to fight some barbs.

So, two out of three completed games, I shot myself in the foot with some unprofitable minor attack. And dear reader? I’m only a little sorry, only partially chastened. Take the current game as an example. I currently have three enemies: Ziankali, Aspi, and Holland. Astute lurkers might notice that I’ve just named all my neighbors. Ziankali is currently winning the game, I believe. Eventually he will run out of avenues of peaceful expansion. He’ll need to fight someone to keep expanding, and he’ll likely pick the runt of his neighbors. I’m weak; he’s strong. If I want to win, I need him to not kill me when he turns imperialistic. More than that, I need him to not win somehow. Aspi planted a city a boat ride away from two of my cities, one of which is my capital. His culture will grab the only spot I know of that will give intercontinental trade routes. He must know that I will take that city as soon as I can. I know that he knows. Finally, Holland. He’s actually the least inimical of my enemies. We’re enemies because I want the land to my East. Some of that land, in a fair world, would be his, including the excellent pig tile. There are two ways that the neighbors stop being enemies. 1) We settle mutually defensible boundaries that are too costly to attack. 2) A different neighbor becomes a great enough threat to the both of us.

I say all this with no personal animus. I’ve got nothing against my neighbors, and I assume they don’t have anything against me. We’re simply opponents. Simply by existing next to each other in a competitive game, we are in a state of conflict. I wacked Holland’s axe because the attack benefited me and cost him. But of course therein lies the rub. It could be that by attacking I make myself Holland’s least liked neighbor, and he moves against me in the future, so my attack comes back to cost me later. My blind spot comes from the fact that at the same time I am eager to do casual violence, I accept the risk of someone doing the same to me. For example, if Ziankali wants to kill my warrior, that would not change our relationship in the slightest. It gives me an intelligence problem: I can’t watch for his chariots/horse archers. But that’s a tactical consideration. To my mind nothing has changed vis a vis diplomacy. (In fact I said something like this back in PB38: “If I ever play another game at RB, something for future opponents: I would not take it personally if BGN declared to move through. If I then had a warrior in reach, I'd pop his scout. That's just scouts and warriors doing what scouts and warriors do.”) Ziankali is the big fish; I am the small fish, warrior snipe or no.

This is not to say I don’t get cranky when people thwart my plans or break my stuff. When GeneralKilCavalry and Boak were propping Superdeath up with free luxuries in PB45, I was furious: “Dear lurkers, please let me be white-hot, seething mad, despite my knowledge that my opponents are doing what they should do.” But at heart, I can appreciate self-interest. And despite my proclaimed jerkishness, I have worked with neighbors. I worked with Rusten against Mackoti in PB38 and Commodore against Rusten in PB41.

I know that in the real world justice is not, in fact, merely the advantage of the stronger. But in a game of Civ? A few turns after raging about GeneralKilCavalry’s luxury gifts to Superdeath and swearing eternal vengeance, he and I made a mutually advantageous luxury trade. We knew where we stood. We weren’t allies, but self-interest prevailed. So, back to PB88. I have gained 2xp on an axe, 2 Great General points, the chance for 2 more xp and some capture gold, and I’ve cost a rival a unit. Without a reaction from Holland, this is pure profit, however miniscule. It remains to be seen if I’ve started a chain of events that ends with terrible cost. “Mock mothers from their sons. Mock castles down.”

Turns out this manifesto was just my attempt at explaining my face-blind realpolitik. I promise that, if I dish it out, I at least make an honest effort to take it, too. Future opponents please don’t read this. smile

P.S. I miss Krill.

Now to try to translate all this to German.
There is no way to peace. Peace is the way.
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We can't read our opponents' minds and we don't really know them as individuals with backgrounds and values. Opponents may act in ways that are internally consistent to them yet externally perplexing to us, especially in a free-for-all where we see and contribute to only a fraction of what they're dealing with. Under such circumstances, can we really expect anyone else to behave in a certain way? Conversely, can any of our opponents ever trust us and let down their guard?

I offer no answers, only hammer

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Thanks for being so open about your thoughts / motivations!
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