[SPOILERS] - social distancing with pindicator

[Sullla]

Beautifully played and beautifully reported, this thread has been a treat to read for the last few months. This turn was a great showcase of why the design team for Civ4 limited units to 2 movement points (as opposed to the 3 movement which was common in Civ3). This whole sequence has been a textbook example of how to crack through an opponent with tough defenses. Best of luck with the remaining mop-up operation.

[Gaspar]

Nicely done, pindicator.

Nitpicking, but if you had unfogged the city tile for Bake It at the beginning of the turn, do you think it would have changed your play much?

Also - where do you go from here?

[pindicator]

Thanks everyone for the congratulations! Be sure to give Superdeath praise in his thread for a tenacious defense. Every time I've felt like I've had him finished with a decisive battle then things have just gotten more difficult. This last turn could easily have gone badly at Saute It with one more knight loss.

Nitpicking, but if you had unfogged the city tile for Bake It at the beginning of the turn, do you think it would have changed your play much?

It wasn't so much unfogging Bake It, it was realizing that Superdeath's culture would go away at just the right tiles for me to be able to move the 3-move GG in. I suppose if I would have just done that first and taken the city then it would have been really obvious

But I probably would have brought the GG in ahead right after the two 60% knight attacks and before the Numid and 2 Knight losses. So perhaps it saves me a Numid and a Knight. Perhaps it really skews the results later - remember that we did win a 24% right after the GG attack too.

Also - where do you go from here?

I'm going to save that for after we hopefully mop up the rest of Superdeath's mainland cities next turn.

[pindicator]

Ended turn and Mjmd 1-turned Liberalism after either 1-turn or 2-turn Education. This game is over.

[Gaspar]

Ended turn and Mjmd 1-turned Liberalism after either 1-turn or 2-turn Education.  This game is over.

I mean probably, but at the same time do we know if he knows anything about fighting? Might be worth it to make him show it.

[pindicator]

171

I started this turn, a little puzzled.




Okay, someone is supplying him iron. Who could be ...



Yeah, that makes sense.  Costs Mjmd nothing and likely helps eliminate a few more knights from myself.

I took the empty city with a knight because the two knights didn't have the movement to reach Broil It.  And it makes sense that he stuffs units into Broil It because that is the Great Lighthouse city and the real prize of this conquest.  I sent in the 95hp C2 Shock knight with 25% odds, and it died, but it got several hits in.  Then the 2 numids killed the archer: first one withdrew and the second one finished it up, just like Numids should.  And finally, a C1 Knight with 90% odds against his wounded pikeman...

Code:

95hp C2 Shock Knight v Pikeman (25.7%) - loss, 3 hits
87hp C2 F2 Numid v Archer (27.0% / 36.5%) - withdraw, 4 hits
C1 Knight v 46hp Pikeman (90.9%) - win
85hp C2 F2 Numid v 28hp Archer (99.5% / 0.3%) - win!!

The prize:




It was wonderful to get an immediate boost of 50bpt at 100% for capturing the Great Lighthouse.  I'd show off a trade route porn shot but they dont' all fit in the screen now!  Actually, I'll put something together after Optics is done and we get circumnavigation:  it will be fun to show off 6 trade routes of 4+ apiece in some city.

Now that superdeath is off the mainland I will need to dotmap the rest of the open area.  With Great Lighthouse and Circumnavigation coming soon, I'm going to want to cram in every coastal spot available, even if they have no food.  

I'm at 24 cities now, and at the conqueror's plateau.  I see room for 6 more cities in here, another 2 in the south at Gira, and another 2 in the far east.  Many of these will be crappy fishing cities, but with all these coastal trade routes they all will be worht settling.  That will put me up to 34 cities, though I may not be able to settle the far east ones easily.  So 32 for certain.

Mjmd is stuffing more knights into his Harney wanna-be replacement.  I don't think this is an attack force yet, but I need to make more catapults just in case.




As far as my forces, I have 25 knights that need to head south and then heal.  They are going to sit tight around Yamhill so that they can react either direction in case Mjmd does an attack.  I don't expect he attacks yet, but he might.

Ended turn and Mjmd 1-turned Liberalism after either 1-turn or 2-turn Education.  This game is over.

I mean probably, but at the same time do we know if he knows anything about fighting?  Might be worth it to make him show it.

True, his earlier attack against me did tell me that he isn't too experienced at warring - or even more, that he isn't experienced being the aggressor.  But my cities have whipped fat, they've whipped meat, they are starting to whip into bone.  I have no city above size 9 right now and many of my cities have 50+ turns of whip anger.  War weariness of 4-5 in cities won't go away until Superdeath dies.  Plus, my one big advantage was my power difference and that was used up in expanding into Superdeath.

But when you look around the world, you have me finishing off Superdeath.

You have the Cairo v AT war heating up again.




And Jowy v Charriu is still going strong.




This is why Jowy teched Gunpowder this turn:  he is getting pushed back by a civ with half his research rate.  Serious Kudos to Charriu here.

But yes, the entire map was set up for Cairo v AT (look at how thick the borders are there compared to other neighbors) and Jowy was like Superdeath in that the only way he could go is through Charriu.  I guess through AT is possible but Charriu is the better border.  And then I was in the middle of the Superdeath - Gira sandwich.  All Mjmd has done is smartly not get involved in any wars and so he has been able to tech away in peace.

That's why demos look like this:





I'm not even above him in power any longer





So how do we come out of this?  Let's turn this on its head:  how does Mjmd win this?  I think he needs more land or more production to get the victory - me having this much land means that he potentially gets out-produced later in the game.  So he needs to either attack me and knock me down or he needs to attack and eat Charriu + Jowy to his east.  I'm sure his goal is rifles, but I do not think that is going to be enough for him if he comes after me.  See PB8 for how to fight off rifles with knights and catapults.

Can I catch him long term?  That MoM is so broken - one thing I'm going to advocate for after this is for Charriu to add an expiration tech to that wonder, like RtR has done.  Doesn't have to be the same one, but the whole chaining golden ages with the MoM is so busted it makes it a game-winning wonder.  (Also, remember how Mjmd was like the 4th person to Calendar?  I know why I didn't build it - but what is the excuse of other players?)

I do not think attacking him now is possible.  My cities are too depleted, the extra happiness has been used by whip anger and war weariness.  I think I have to go in for the economic push.  And then try for the late, late game - or more realistically, while he pushes for Rifling I need to push for cannons and grenadiers.

My next techs need to be economic:   Literature for the Epics, Code of Laws -> Civil Service for courthouses and more farms, then either Gunpowder -> Chemistry right away or getting Education first for Oxford.  I don't think pushing in now is possible.  But if he pulls a Willem, I think it could be possible to hit him in the Rennaisance era.  If I can tech that far...

PRO: 57 (3003)
[b]FIN:[/b[ 42 (2900)
Yay Great Lighthouse!

[Gaspar]

Interesting thoughts, pindicator and good job eliminating SD from the mainland.

Unrelated, MoM probably does need a nerf or a change.

I once described MP Civ as a balancing act on a knife's edge. Essentially, as soon as the turns feel comfortable, as soon as you're doing what you want to do, as soon as your cities are out of whip anger, as soon as your plans are described 5-6 techs ahead... you're losing. Basically, if you don't feel stressed out by every decision you make, you're not running your Civ to its highest potential.

There's a reason you said Mjmd won once he landed Liberalism. If he chains 3 12t GAs he will be so far ahead his lesser number of build queues is made if not irrelevant, certainly reduced. The more time he has, the further ahead he gets. I guess the bottom line is, somebody has to force him to whip/draft and defend. Ideally, that would be Cairo or Jowy but they're both embroiled in their own spats and Jowy can't realistically get there anyway. That means it has to be you. I'm not suggesting you turn those units around immediately, but I'd be looking at 10t rather than 30t as an objective. I don't necessarily think you need to have the objective of wiping him out, you just need the objective of terrorizing him and forcing him to build units rather than wonders and whip off some of that population.

Easy for me to say from the backseat there, but felt like it was worth saying.

[pindicator]

I don't know, maybe I just don't want to at this point. I'm tired of feeling stressed every turn, I'd love a mental break.

By the way, Mjmd picked exactly the same combination for PB54: Vicky of India. This guy is a builder, not a warmonger.

Hell with it, let's see what we can throw together.

[pindicator]

172

Okay, maybe there's something.  But it's really slim.  And there's no guarantee it works or that we just don't get wiped off the map right after.  Or that he doesn't see it coming.  Or a million things.

Anyway, Superdeath first.




He let my galleys pass, which probably means he has another trireme in production or that he can whip.  My triremes in the capital will finish healing this turn due to the great general, and then combined with the one finishing in the capital we'll have 3 C1 triremes ready to go.  In a pinch I can also upgrade them to caravels at 50g apiece.  I'd rather not, but if it speeds up the war then it is worth it.

I don't have any units that can promote to sentry in the area which would have shown me what is inside the city itself.  Hopefully there isn't much and we'll be able to quickly shuttle 4-8 units to take it.

War weariness is starting to look bad:







Also showing off that I'm getting 20c in just trade routes at the capital right now.  It's going to be worth it to just cram in cities eventually, but right now it is worth it to cram cities on the coast.

We also don't have enough foreign trade routes to fill our cities, so funny enough Cothons are low on the priority list.  Castles are higher because they have another purpose in addition to the trade route.  But we're going to focus on getting the blanket bonuses first.  Great Lighthouse was one.  Circumnavigation is next



Spent 50g to upgrade this guy on my west coast to a caravel.  That will save me a whip in a city, and this trireme was really only good for going back to Mjmd anyway.  I guess it will take 10 turns for him to uncover the rest.  (Maybe we'll find a glorious new world that will make us want to bulb Astronomy and so we can win the late game.)  But i doubt GKC would be that nice to us.

Finance F2 screen:




My city maintenance at 25 cities is somehow only 7 more than it was at 18 cities.  That seems wrong.  But my cities are a lot smaller now due to the heavy whipping.  Still, that feels wrong.

Speaking of having 25 cities, I founded an island city this turn to get more ICTRs.




Meeting at Corvallis is the next book in the Emberverse series, but shortening all that just looked ugly and so I stuck with the city name of Corvallis.  I've never read the books, by the way.

I'll have 3 more cities come out of revolt at end of this turn.  Hopefully my income can jump up a bit because I'm going to need it in order to get the next level of military technology.

Mjmd took Printing Press with Liberalism.  I was really worried he wouldn't go towards Rifles.  I know that Rifles are the traditional unit to head for because you can draft them and because they are good enough for killing the AI.  But against humans they still can be defended by catapult stacks and maces/knights.  Like I said, I've done it before.  Twice, actually: PB8 when Commodore invaded - I even burned a city defended by rifles in that game where I threw away 30 knights (lol, what a game), and then PB18 where I fought off dtay's cavalry & rifle invasion with Knights, pikes, CKN, and catapults.  Then Fintourist decided I was weak enough to eat, but now I want to restore my PB18 dropbox links next because 1) that city had a lot of epic moments, and 2) I'd hate for one of my favorite naming schemes (Myth: the Fallen Lords) to be lost to the annals of dropbox.

Anyway, the point is I can defend.  I need units and population.  I'm not afraid of being attacked by rifles and cavalry because I can hit those with collateral.  I'm terrified of defending against cannons because what do you do against a unit with a higher base strength and that you can't flank or catapult down?  I'd have to get to Military Tradition myself if he was going on the bottom of the tech tree.

Gaspar is right though.  I need to slow him down.  So I'm probing around down south.




I had an idea around her relating to culture.  See, even those Mjmd owns those tiles now, I still had them long enough that i have the dominant culture in the area.  That means if I were to plant a city to the west of Foam and that overlaps it's 2nd ring, it would immediately grab those tiles for me to use.  If I had enough knights I could consider smashing through the defenses and the wrecking the catapults behind in 1 big attack.  But that would be bloody with the longbow on a hill here.  It is an option, however.  It's also one he'd see coming a turn in advance because that gold hill gets sight.  I'd have to either plant the city the turn I move the knights into position, or move the knights into sight and position and hope he doesn't realize what's coming.

If it works here then I would theoretically have direct access to his Mom & Parthenon city and possibly be able to burn it.  Yet again, look at the number of defenders.  I would need to have 30+ knights just to deal with what I see, not to mention what could be behind.  I would not be able to bring siege units and I would lose a lot of units in the initial attack. I know there are at least 6 more knights to the east, because he had more knights in this city last turn and they've moved out now.

This also could work at the ruins of Lake.



Here I could have knights in position NW of the stone, then settle on the stone and hit Sugar Cookies from out of the fog without him realizing.  I'd probably want to break the road on the stone ahead of time to keep him from scouting me and I'll send a knight to do that right away.  We should be able to burn Sugar Cookies straight away and then depending on where we want to go, can either move towards his core or south to burn MoM and Parthenon.  Here I still have to deal with his catapult stack, however.  As long as I keep moving east I'll be able to eliminate them.  Here I would be concerned more about him counter-attacking with his stack - and I would be more sure that I lose all my knights eventually as I press on into his territory.  However I think I have more opportunity to do lasting damage by going this way.

So which way would you go?  Which avenue seems better?  I think I have some de facto ded lurkers by now, chime in if you are.  I need all the help I can get.

PRO: 61 (3064)
FIN: 43 (2943)
FIN almost had closed the gap, but its about to be left behind again.

[pindicator]

Also I found a bug with the AI Diplo setup. It's still tuned for single player:





Same thing for AT & Cairo. I'm sure Superdeath and myself show the same way.
I'm guessing it still accounts for the Relations modifier.