RB PBEM #2 - Justinian (SPOILERS!)

[Dreylin]

and a less-distracted on with Darrell:

Darrell: Yo

me: Ho

Darrell: Just curious if you said anything to krill

me: yeah, we had a chat the other day

Darrell: I see...and you told him I was trading you Steel?

me: no, of course not

Darrell: Interesting...he asked me not to trade you Steel so he found out somehow.
I wonder if he can see your research and knows you are going for Chemistry

me: not sure if he can see
a bit borderline
so what did you tell him?

Darrell: I didn't answer
I am going to trade you Steel of course
I just need to figure out the best way to reply.
Silence might be best, not sure yet.

me: just checking...

Darrell: The sneaky option that occured ot me is I tell himi won't trade you steel, then trade it to SL who trades it to you. The turn order supports that nicely.

me: that's maybe even more suspect

Darrell: yeah...what is the ETA on Steel/Astronomy?
err...Chemistry I mean.
From the amoutn of gold SL asked for I assume he is worst case

me: Chem in 3-4t

Darrell: I think Krill gets Astronomy in 2t, but I am not 100% sure. His GNP took a huge drop last turn, I don't really know what than means.

me: not sure if we have a firm ETA on Astro, but it was looking like 7-ish


Darrell: shoot
that really sucks

me: At least we can get Drydocks up first

Darrell: Yeah I am working on 3 right now
Krill probably won't trade me Astronomy now, so I think I'm dependent on you guys
But with 3 civs making Frigates I doubt he will be able to own the seas for long
I need to talk to ruff too, I might want to borrow part of his army.

me: fingers crossed

Darrell: 7t on astro is really a big problem, see if you can convince SL to speed it up by working specialists or whatever it takes
build research
that kind of thing
shaving 1-2t off would be huge, especially for you

me: yeah

Darrell: Okay I got to head back to work...ttyl

me: 'bye

[Dreylin]

t107 - brain no work now, nice easy turn me hopes.

Constantinople: Settler - Barracks
Adrianople: Musket - Musket?
Antioch: Cataphract - Library

So Krill declined to attack my retreating Caravel, instead putting 2 on his Fish. With only one healthy of my own in range, and a third of his coming in from the East, I don't think I can press the battle this turn. Likely outcome is for me to lose 2 of mine and then maybe win with the third. I consolidate all 4 of mine onto the tile 2SW of the Fish; 2 promote to C1.

He's also parked the Southern Caravel onto the Clams at Trebizond.

And the Barb Galley hasn't attacked, so I guess I'll get 2xp from attacking it ... 2.5/3h remaining.

Time to fire off the Golden Age to get me to Chemistry ... in 2t.

Whip Courthouse into Trebizond and queue a 2t Caravel. Const will drain the full overflow into MoM, and then next turn will put the Barracks in.

[Dreylin]

Well it looks like Krill is maybe feeling threatened!?

krill.krill: Dreylin,you aroundatm?
I want to add something to that chat we had the other day
that you may, or may not, be interested in

me: oh yeah?

krill.krill: I'll cut the bullshit.
If you agreed to what I said, I'd be willing to join" you in a war against Darell, if you wanted. Heavy lifting would be mine, of course
That is pretty much how you'd win.

me: Wouldn't that be me joining you in a war, not the other way around?

krill.krill: pretty much

me: so how does that lead to my winning?

krill.krill: just me being dense with the wording
what,you don;t want to watch #1 and #2 cripple each other?
and have a great share of the land

me: Oh, I thought you expected me to help you
his land is 1/2way around the world from mine
yay distance expenses

krill.krill: yay FP?

me: time & hammer-consuming to build but I guess it would help
does it work on Colony expenses as well?

krill.krill: yup
colony expenses are limited to distance costs
and with an FP next to the city,colony expenses are negligable

me: useful to know

[Dreylin]

t108 - bimbly-bimble.

Constantinople: switch to Caravel
Antioch: Library - University
Nicomedia: Library - Barracks

Krill still no Astro ... me = happy. SL due in 5t and Chemistry due for me at EOT.

So 3Caravels standing off across the bay against 4 of mine. He has 1xC2 & 2 un-promoted, and I have 2xC1 (both on 2.5/3h) & 2x un-promo. Krill has also sent the Caravel from Trebizond further Northwest - scouting me out. My NE Caravel promotes C2 and stays in place for a turn to heal.

Found Iconium on Blue Dot; expenses go up 7gpt. Start a Granary.

I send a message to Darrell asking him to trade me Steel if he can. Judging from my previous experience, he should be able to.

Perhaps Military Science might be a good next destination for research; Ships of the Line will be pretty useful against Frigates. I'll send an e-mail to Ruff and ask for gold to fund that research....

[Dreylin]

Note to the "team":

Gents,

So I had an idea while I was finishing off Chemistry this turn. How about I go for Military Science next; Ships of the Line seem like they might be a decent plan at this point. Printing Press might be the next logical option, but I'm open to any other suggestions?

I finished this turn, so go ahead and request it if you can, otherwise I'll offer it when I can.

I'll need ~70g next turn to keep at 100% (on whatever we decide) and forgot to ask for it, so Ruff you will need to send it over. If you can't, I'll see if Darrell is willing to supply.

SL; any possible way you can speed up Astro by another turn? Right now additional research is probably worth more than units.


Dreylin.

[Dreylin]

So Krill stopped by last night:

krill.krill: Yo dude, you around?

me: not for long

krill.krill: I just want to say that unfortunately, Darrell just pointed out something I agreed with him ages ago
and we have a game long NAP
so unfortunatly, I can't declare on him
so looks like we are going to war

me: Hmmm
ah well

krill.krill: have a good evening as well then
oh, and don't truyst Darrell in future game

me: Any particular reason?

krill.krill: What, someone signs a game long NAP with you,at their request, then stabs you in the back by trading with you primary enemy is to be trusted?
Face it, you are a tool, and I got manipulated

me: Gee thanks for calling me a Tool

krill.krill: Hey I'm not a care bear

me: So could you feed me troops to use against him?

krill.krill: I would have no qualms against doing that

me: Well that's something for you to think about before killing me

krill.krill: Dude, if you agreed to that land split, I'm quite happy to go to war footing and gift that shit to you to have fun with
Darrell killed my entusiasm for this game

me: Hmmm
Well I'm off to bed
but I've got a lot to think about
I'll let you know

krill.krill: cool
have a good sleep
now I'm working nights, I have an excuse to be up this late

me: heh

krill.krill: so cya around

me: yeah ttyl

So it seems like there's 3 explanations for this:

1) Darrell lied to me about the terms of his NAP with Krill.

2) Krill is lying now

3) Darrell has managed to pull a fast one on Krill and convince him of something that isn't necessarily the case.


So how do I read the situation? Well Krill does seem genuinely disgusted, but it's hard to see why he would actually agree to something as restrictive as a game-long NAP with anyone. Here's what Ruff said when I asked him about it:

me: Hey Ruff
Darrell ever mentioned having a NAP with Krill?

Ruff.Hi: hi
they have a NAP
but Darrell is beefing up his defenses just in case Krill attacks him
actually - I think it is a stupid 1-way NAP
basically - Darrell has told Krill that he will not attack him

me: Ah, OK

Which corresponds to what Darrell told me. Which leads me to #3; I wonder if Darrell somehow convinced Krill that they had signed a more restrictive NAP than he first thought ... or even managed to conceal how restrictive their NAP was while they were signing it?

I just don't know at this point. I'm probably being played by somebody, but have no idea whether it's Krill or Darrell ... it's probably both of them!

I guess I'll see how trustworthy Darrell is when I open up the turn and see if Steel is on the table....

[Dreylin]

So yeah I'm sitting on the turn, but then I'm really trying to decide which side to put myself on.

So I dialed up Darrell this morning to feel him out about what's going on, and then part-way through that I also started talking to Krill. Darrell chat first, but they go concurrent part-way through:

Darrell: Yo

me: How's things?

Darrell: Krill rattling his saber

me: Yeah, rattling at me too
he's pissed at you, certainly

Darrell: Steel trade go through?

me: haven't checked

Darrell: Oh yeah

me: trying to get me to wage a proxy-war against you

Darrell: Figured he would do something like that
I was going tio ask for a nap extension prior to sending steel over but decided to just trust you

me: What is our NAP situation BTW?

Darrell: Probably 20 turns left, give or take
There was a time when you weren't willing to sign one I was planning to join in against you with krill

me: heh

Darrell: I had pretty much decided you had written me off...

me: well there was a point when I pretty much had

Darrell: I will need a nap extension before xfering units over...don't want to pull a slaze
Yeah I thought so...glad we worked it out cause I think krill had won otherwise

me: Sorry, just digging through old chats
So do you still think Krill will be declaring on you?

Darrell: He is digging for excuses that's for sure
50/50
Did you find the nap details?

me: Does he need an excuse?
I thought your NAP allowed him to do so with sufficient warning...

Darrell: Yeah he does for helping him out he bilateraled it

me: Oh, as part of the Lib deal?

Darrell: That was part of it...bigger part was not joining 4v1 against him by far
He was paranoid of a dogpile

me: except you're effectively doing that, right?

Darrell: Then I agreed not to go for culture which for some reason he was worrief about
Ruff won't be in it will he?

me: Hmmmm

Darrell: We are both apparently at the poiint where letter of the law is what matters

me: Oh, so you've changed your mind about culture
brb

Darrell: Not going for culture no
If sl can avoid war I think he will
Space is my plan I guess

me: You're still trading with him, I see

Darrell: Not anymore
Not if he's trying to wage a proxy war for sure
That tbh is when I think hell declare

me: Oh, so nothing more after Banking...

Darrell: I owe him beakers fromn the lib run

me: aha

Darrell: Tried to get him to take music but it will have to be economikcs
He's gnp is ridiculous
He got chem in 2.5 turns

me: Hmmm, current graphs show him back down on a reasoable level
and he still hasn't got Astro

Darrell: He is running cash I hope

me: If he is, he's spending it as fast as it's being made

Darrell: You been checking?
Gnp graph is odd...sl

me: Well, he's only got ~100g

Darrell: 'S shot up to krill level briefly
Then there is ruff

me: maybe he ran some Scientists

Darrell: Yeah aNd now he's probably whipping cannon

me: Maybe so

Darrell: Are you willing to help tech prop ruff?
Or interested?

me: Well I've been expecting him to start asking for techs

Darrell: I bring it up bedcaUse he asked me for guilds and I had to tell him no

me: Oh interesting
why would he ask you and not me?

Darrell: Dunno mabey he thought I teched it?

OK, so my jaunt through our old chats was to track down the terms of our NAP: on t90 we signed a flat 30t NAP, so expiry is due in a little more than 10t. Not sure that finding out all about their dealings is giving me any more faith in Darrell as a partner ... if he's playing letter of the deal with Krill, then that implies he'd be prepared to do the same with the rest of us as well.

Anyway, here's what Krill had to say:

me: Hmmm, I understand why you're so pissed off

krill.krill: really?

me: I've been talking with Darrell

krill.krill: so, you know the full story?

me: I get the impression he's out evil-genius'd you

krill.krill: I wouldn;t call it that
backstabbed more like

me: can I ever know the full story without partisan distortions?

krill.krill: I could go and forward you every little chat (and big one) in my gmail account

me: bleargh

krill.krill: thought as much

me: got enough problems keeping track of my own chats!

krill.krill: ha, yeah
tbh, I don;t think he "out evil-geniused" me, rather that I have done a lot of stuff for him out of friendship (call it naivety if you want, but I tried playing a "nice" game this time), and he has taken advantage of that
I didn;t trade techs to Yaz
although gifted MC could have screwed with Darrell
I didn;t gift gold or resources to help him slave out more
I held onto techs when he asked me to
and then he black mails me with Lib
at the time it was just strong negoitiation, but now he has effectively betrayed me, it's little more than that

me: now that's an interesting twist

krill.krill: Well, we agreed to go to steel together
after a turn or to he demands a game long NAP or he won;t go for Steel
then after I agree, he admits he would have joined you lot in a 4v1
if I hadn't
and now, to top it all off, he is giving Steel to you
I'm not sure who is worse
regoarrarr or Darrell

me: Well Darrell's certainly managing to play all sides so far

krill.krill: Well, the decision to stop him from doing that is effectively yours
because while I feel he has broken our agreement in spirit,he hasn't broken the letter
although
he did go and settle some land that we were still talking about
which effectively means that he has abused the agreement as much as possible
I'm stuggling to find anything that he has done in good faith tbh, except some much earlier tech trades where he gifted first
So I think you can see why my offer to you is sincere

me: So basically I'm Kingmaker?

krill.krill: Well
not entirely

me: We fight = Darrell gets ahead

krill.krill: well

me: I fight Darrell = you get ahead

krill.krill: I'm pretty sure I can take you out no matter what you do

me: I stay out of it = you find a loophole and fight Darrell?

krill.krill: unless SL and Ruff come to your aid
Yeah

me: Well no-one said you're not confident

But I figure I lose some before I start winning

krill.krill: I have too much pop, food, happy cap space for you to out slave or out draft me

me: on my own, yes

krill.krill: even in a 3v1, can't see you winning
until way too late
but you have to ask, why are we going to war?

me: er, because you attacked me?

krill.krill: I just didn;t want your Caravel on my fish
you already have my world map in reality
and I don;t have yours

me: Well, I don't know about your settlements East of Trebizond

krill.krill: fair enough
if we were to agree to a lasting peace deal, I'd be happy to take part in a world map exchange

me: And I can just guess at some locations onland
Would you front me land/cities to run a war against Darrell?
then You'd receive the bulk of his land

krill.krill: hmmmm
which cities?

me: I was thinking the ones nearest to my core
Land's End/Middle
the ones East of Treb?

krill.krill: no to the east of treb
that is a city with a national wonder

me: Ah, I figured there were two out there
Moai?

krill.krill: could be.
not going to confirm anything like that as no one has maps of that area
other than me

me: understandable

krill.krill: LE/LM, might have a problem
LE is slaved into the ground
LM won't get the flood plain (so iseffectively just a fish/coast city)
so you'd have to consider how worthwhile they are to you.

me: Well I'm not wholely enthusaiastic about having a colony on the far side of you

krill.krill: I don't mind giving up LE/LM too much
I'm just not sure how useful they are to you
ie
if you have really thought them through
other point is that I'm not willing to gift cities until the war is underway
also
it is better if I make the boats because they get more promotions

me: Ah, but if it's a proxy war then you have to gift them to me, right?

krill.krill: yeah

me: so sail them West first?
how many turns does that add?

krill.krill: let me fire up the save and check
it is 2 turns either way

me: hmmmm

krill.krill: Not sure if you are aware of this
but there is an island just off my east caost
that I could plant a city o and gift to you
and gift there

me: That might work

krill.krill: it would be between the gold island thatt Darrell has settled, and north of his capital
well, slightly north west
from there you couldthreaten basically everything

me: you should know that I have an NAP with him

krill.krill: how long for, if you don;t mind me asking?

me: it expires t120

krill.krill: *shrug*need that long to make troops andmove them over

me: indeed

krill.krill: unless you want to hit him from your east as well
but then he might get tipped off

me: Yeah, sail time is a bit long
& difficult to avoid SL

krill.krill: I take it SL and Ruff are in Darrells pocket?

me: don't know

krill.krill: oh well, I hope not

me: Well I'm going to need to think about this some more
but I have 2t? left on our previously-agreed thinking time

krill.krill: about that ;()

me: So our Caravels can stare at each other for a while longer
... though I reserve the right to deal with the one behind my lines

krill.krill: If you agree to leave him alone, I'm willing to retreat him
round the south
as an offer of good faith

me: back the way he came?

krill.krill: yeah
without stopping on the claims

me: without sitting on Clams
heh
Well no promises from my side
but if he goes South I won't intercept him

krill.krill: ok

me: I suppose that was a promise

krill.krill: true

Well clearly Krill has a different perception than Darrell, but they line up pretty well next to each other. So it comes down to:

a) who do I trust
b) how do I best protect myself
c) how do I maximise my chances of winning

Asking Krill for the nearby settlements up-front was really a way to gauge how far he'd be willing to go to get me at Darrell's throat; and I'm not entirely sure I like the idea of having a colony on the other side of Krill that he'd effectively be able to take on his whim.

I guess right now I'm leaning towards siding with Krill, but I'd really like to chat with SL before finalising anything. I think Ruff is firmly allied with Darrell, but I think that SL is a bit more neutral and I may be able to get a second perspective on the whole thing.

[pocketbeetle]

(literally got a bowl of popcorn in front of me)

[Yazilliclick]

(literally got a bowl of popcorn in front of me)

Please share This is certainly getting interesting

[Dreylin]

A bit more from Krill:

krill.krill: One last thing
if you are still around

me: yeah?

krill.krill: On the cities discusssion
it is kinda hard for either of us to fully and fairly comment
because I only know where 2 of your cities are, and you don't know about the area east of Trebizond
so if it turns out that your sticking point is the cities
perhaps a world map exchange would be the best way around that.
and yeah, there are pitfalls with that approach

me: Sure
well I think that an agreeable land split would need to be part of any agreement

krill.krill: definately.

me: and my concern is the long-term defensibility of my territory if it's split in half

krill.krill: If it is that you specifically don't want Darrells cities on the mainland, then yeah, I see your point.
otoh, I am not interested in taking Darrell out for the land, I want him out because he is acting like a smeghead

me: understood
anyway, I've gotta run

krill.krill: but I think that we can definitely reach something agreeable
cya aroundmate

So no sign yet of SL, and I've probably held the turn long enough so I'll go ahead and play and then write something to him.