WW 46: Wolves Return to Realms Beyond

[GeneralKilCavalry]

GeneralKilCavalry

Can we get a little more explanation for this vote?

I do like your post here but my conclusion is rather that Cyneheard protected GKC . GKC voted Cyneheard early on and then jumped to naufr 1 hour into the game and stayed there a long long time before he finally jumped on the Bob-wagon.  

I did post about this as well earlier, here. Very interested to hear GKC's thoughts on it despite not being my #1 for today.

Rowain you are being disingenuous - I voted for Cyneheard as a test, because he provided me with the voting tags. If I had tested it on ANY OTHER PERSON that would have been suspect. Moreover, I was the one who had the most telling engagement with Cyne, after which the wagon on him started in earnest. Probably if that day had lasted longer, I would've switched to Cyne, but I absolutely disliked bob's tone and didn't want to switch at the moment.

Rowain/Nauf - neither of you have answered my suspicions in my earlier dossier on nauf about your strange combined posting and mutual defensiveness.

Frankly, the lack of interaction with some of my posts on nauf has made me feel a bit disconnected with the game (serdoa/lewwyn excepted), and now people are asking me to speak up?

naufragar

Also, everyone please look at post #514 by Serdoa.

[Meiz]

Was my second post with platitudes? Uh, yeah? If he's being earnest, then the platitudes might actually be helpful because he's struggling to understand the point of day 1 - trying a different way to explain things because obviously it wasn't working whether because he's not getting it or he's choosing not to get it.

Who do I have a read on? It's hard because there's been a lot of quiet people, and I'm trying to be respectful of time outside the game too.

Obviously willing to go back to pind, whose early wagoning felt off to me and I haven't seen much from him since.

We've got a few people who really haven't said much today. And Bob's barely added anything this evening except a too-earnest "lynch me if you will" that we've all noticed.

Serdoa and Rowain are both people I always struggle to read. I'm not seeing anything different about them from what I seem to remember. Lewwyn, you're as usual flooding the boards with everything and I think on balance it's helpful.

Gaspar's tunneled on me a bit, and when he has he's basically just said "you're suspicious because you are" and that's it, hard for me to be objective.

I'm trying to understand why I'm suspicious at the same time as GKC when we're trying to tell superdeath the same thing. The biggest difference is that I moved my vote to SD but GKC explicitly didn't change his - so what? Every post is an opportunity to change a vote.

You keep saying quiet people quiet people, maybe I'm mistaken, but there's been a great amount of activity in this thread, almost hard to keep up, and everyone has at least 7 posts. That's enough to make even a vague judgement on anyone, and I don't understand your repeating of this line.

I disagree Gaspar, the post wasn't really apolegetic in tone, it just seems a bit strange given Cyneheard's own silence/parrotting earlier in post 10, 70.

Also, the "love-fest" between Gaspar and Lewwyn continues? I don't like this aggression against cyne without detailed reasoning - perhaps I'm too noob to understand

Also, Cyne, with so many votes on SD, why do you feel the need to put a further vote on him? Any other avenues you wish to pursue?

This is actually defending Cyneheard, don't know how I missed it in the first read. Then the heat picks up, I'm providing reasons to vote Cyneheard with pretty much exact reason he's stating on the first line, yet he never considers going back to his early suspicions.

GeneralKilCavalry

[GeneralKilCavalry]

Read - #245-255 - Rowain's accusation is very low-information and a distraction from more pressing issues. The only credible attack against me is if you believe Serdoa is scum, then my association with his reads and this anti-nauf alliance incriminates me as well. But Rowain is stating things that are contrary to reality.

[Rowain]

To elaborate why I find your response to my post bad: This is your exchange with Meiz that you told me about in your last post:

 

Rowain votes Cyneheard on post #299. But later switches his vote for Lewwyn #320. The vote change itself is suspicious, as it's pushing Cyne away from potential lynch targets. Can you explain how you viewed Lewwyn's play before your vote? Suspicious already? If so, why? Later switches his vote for Adrien. You were not ultimately interested on the Cyneheard votes despite the earlier small push, and I'd like to hear why.

Lewwyn has been extremely excited and more or less all over the place. He has switched from SD to Bob to Cyneheard back to Bob and again Cyneheard - pushing easy targets (SD and Bob) & easy wagons  Hence my post if he thinks both Bob and CH are wolf and my vote for him. As I said then for me both wagons built too fast so I feared we had 2 villagers on the block and looked for another option. Which was AdrienIer. And for the record I'm still very sceptical regarding Lewwyn.

See, Meiz just mentions in his post your vote-change from Cyne to Lewwyn, but he does not mention that Cyne and Bob actually were tied. I did not realize that it was this close at that time. And the phrasing "pushing Cyne away from potential lynch targets" does not really hint at that either. Potential for me is everyone that is a runner-up, with a vote or two less than the leader. But being tied is a little bit more than that, as another vote for Cyneheard would push him above Bob and even a later vote for Bob would not save him.

He then questions you, very friendly, basically telling you what he wants to hear ("Can you explain how you viewed Lewwyn's play before your vote? Suspicious already?") and putting your opinion already before you ("You were not ultimately interested on the Cyneheard votes despite the earlier small push...").

And your answer is predictable: You re-cap how Lewwyn played and voted. You tell that him going back and forth on Bob and Cyneheard made you ask him if he thinks both are wolves and voted for him. That does not explain your vote though, it just re-caps what you did. But what did you try to achieve with that vote? You don't answer that, you only explain that you didn't like neither Bob nor Cyneheard. So I guess you wanted to flee from your own Cyneheard vote and Lewwyn gave you a good out? Because the other option that you were looking for was AdrienIer - which was presented by Lewwyn, whom you apparently didn't mind having pushed two wagons that you believed had villagers on them.

(Wife calling...)

It does. read the exchange between Lewwyn and me I'm sure you can find it afterall you questioned me afterwards about it and accepted my answer then. I got told that I misinterpreted Lewwyn (by several people) I fact that I accept as is. I still didn't like the 2 trains and so I took one I found very compelling anyway - AdrienIer.

[GeneralKilCavalry]

Was my second post with platitudes? Uh, yeah? If he's being earnest, then the platitudes might actually be helpful because he's struggling to understand the point of day 1 - trying a different way to explain things because obviously it wasn't working whether because he's not getting it or he's choosing not to get it.

Who do I have a read on? It's hard because there's been a lot of quiet people, and I'm trying to be respectful of time outside the game too.

Obviously willing to go back to pind, whose early wagoning felt off to me and I haven't seen much from him since.

We've got a few people who really haven't said much today. And Bob's barely added anything this evening except a too-earnest "lynch me if you will" that we've all noticed.

Serdoa and Rowain are both people I always struggle to read. I'm not seeing anything different about them from what I seem to remember. Lewwyn, you're as usual flooding the boards with everything and I think on balance it's helpful.

Gaspar's tunneled on me a bit, and when he has he's basically just said "you're suspicious because you are" and that's it, hard for me to be objective.

I'm trying to understand why I'm suspicious at the same time as GKC when we're trying to tell superdeath the same thing. The biggest difference is that I moved my vote to SD but GKC explicitly didn't change his - so what? Every post is an opportunity to change a vote.

You keep saying quiet people quiet people, maybe I'm mistaken, but there's been a great amount of activity in this thread, almost hard to keep up, and everyone has at least 7 posts. That's enough to make even a vague judgement on anyone, and I don't understand your repeating of this line.

I disagree Gaspar, the post wasn't really apolegetic in tone, it just seems a bit strange given Cyneheard's own silence/parrotting earlier in post 10, 70.

Also, the "love-fest" between Gaspar and Lewwyn continues? I don't like this aggression against cyne without detailed reasoning - perhaps I'm too noob to understand

Also, Cyne, with so many votes on SD, why do you feel the need to put a further vote on him? Any other avenues you wish to pursue?

This is actually defending Cyneheard, don't know how I missed it in the first read. Then the heat picks up, I'm providing reasons to vote Cyneheard with pretty much exact reason he's stating on the first line, yet he never considers going back to his early suspicions.

GeneralKilCavalry

Read 255...

[Rowain]

Read 255...

Yes that is one the posts where you put dirt on cyneheard but still you never put your vote on him. You kept it on naufragar until you moved to Bob.
That is a very classical wolfmove. Throw some accusations on one fellow wolf so that if you ( that seemed a bit more likely early on) or him get caught you have a nice distance.

[Serdoa]

Has nothing to do with your vote or those of the others (i wrote so long on that post while being constantly called to do other things by my wive that I had not even seen those). It also has not to do with your one vote on Day 1. What I pointed out is how that whole process happened, because it is not one single vote I talk about, even if you try to make it seem like so. I don't care that you voted for Lewwyn, even though it made no sense. I don't care that you jumped at AdrienIer at the first request by Lewwyn, after you just had voted for him. What I do care about is that the whole string of events leads to preventing getting a wolf at the top, twice. And twice it is without any real reasons that you switched around.

See Serdoa thats what makes it so nice to play with you. No matter what one gives as his reason you always dismiss it as "No real reason at all".  I fully aknowledge that my voting does look bad and I'm honestly surprised that so far it has no come up until now.

That's very unfair. I have put forward good reasons and this is not a matter of me saying "I dismiss your reasons as bad" but you not actually giving any. Even now you state "Yeah, I admit, my voting looks bad".

It is also disingenuous to now state

• "...my voting does look bad and I'm honestly surprised that so far it has not come up until now.".
  

Just in your last post, you scolded me for bringing it up, because

• "This has been knowledge since the start of the day and only now you see this?".
  

So, first you want to paint me as the bad guy, because I brought it up "too late", but now you are surprised that it hasn't come up till now? Why scold me than in the first place for bringing it up, if you know that your voting looks bad and apparently expected it to be brought up (else you can't be surprised that that didn't happen)? Seems to me you just wanted to aggravate me, making me upset, because it is easier to defend against "crazy Serdoa".

[Rowain]

Has nothing to do with your vote or those of the others (i wrote so long on that post while being constantly called to do other things by my wive that I had not even seen those). It also has not to do with your one vote on Day 1. What I pointed out is how that whole process happened, because it is not one single vote I talk about, even if you try to make it seem like so. I don't care that you voted for Lewwyn, even though it made no sense. I don't care that you jumped at AdrienIer at the first request by Lewwyn, after you just had voted for him. What I do care about is that the whole string of events leads to preventing getting a wolf at the top, twice. And twice it is without any real reasons that you switched around.

See Serdoa thats what makes it so nice to play with you. No matter what one gives as his reason you always dismiss it as "No real reason at all".  I fully aknowledge that my voting does look bad and I'm honestly surprised that so far it has no come up until now.

That's very unfair. I have put forward good reasons and this is not a matter of me saying "I dismiss your reasons as bad" but you not actually giving any. Even now you state "Yeah, I admit, my voting looks bad".

It is also disingenuous to now state

• "...my voting does look bad and I'm honestly surprised that so far it has not come up until now.".
  

Just in your last post, you scolded me for bringing it up, because

• "This has been knowledge since the start of the day and only now you see this?".
  

So, first you want to paint me as the bad guy, because I brought it up "too late", but now you are surprised that it hasn't come up till now? Why scold me than in the first place for bringing it up, if you know that your voting looks bad and apparently expected it to be brought up (else you can't be surprised that that didn't happen)? Seems to me you just wanted to aggravate me, making me upset, because it is easier to defend against "crazy Serdoa".

I find it funny how you again dismiss the reason I have given. I have given my reasons just look and read them . You might not like them you might not accept them but these were my reasons and no matter how often you reiterate "You have not given reasons" you won't get any different answer. There are no more hidden reasons but what I have explained already.
And yes I was surprised that no one has used my voting for an attack on me before and this makes your attack 24 hours after Cyneheard alignment was known very strange. That is not an contradiction. Why do you try to paint it as one?

[Meiz]

Rowain you are being disingenuous - I voted for Cyneheard as a test, because he provided me with the voting tags. If I had tested it on ANY OTHER PERSON that would have been suspect. Moreover, I was the one who had the most telling engagement with Cyne, after which the wagon on him started in earnest. Probably if that day had lasted longer, I would've switched to Cyne, but I absolutely disliked bob's tone and didn't want to switch at the moment.

This and the references to earlier posts make me believe GKC strongly believes he was one of the main parts in starting the Cyneheard train. I'm doubtful if he as a wolf would be trying to play this card to gain credibility so stubbornly. Feels more frustrated for me not understanding the signs. I'm back to pindicator while waiting for Commodore & Adrien to start scum hunting.

GKC, unfortunately no one will take a look at your naufragar accusation if there are no links to the posts you mentioned. Regardless, I want to hear your rest of the take on players. You mentioned somethign about CMF, but others as well.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

Reading on...

I like and don't like Chevalier Mal Fet's long post on #498.  He sees the scooter argument well enough to defend him, but I think he's reaching with the Lewwyn scum to town to scum train of thought that he talks about.  I don't like any argument that says I skate - or rather, I think they're just looking at the post count and being sloppy with their reads to me.  I feel like I've made some solid reads even if I don't have a full opinion on everybody.

I don't like that half of his reads are "has been quiet".  That's not a read, that's a recap.  Still, it is better than silence yourself, but throw some theories out there and we'll vet them as a group.  Like you said, Lewwyn shook trees and it produced fruit, so shake some trees.

Rowain also suspecting Lewwyn does reinforce my suspicions as I like Rowain's game so far and him being early on Cyneheard gives him town points to me.  Still I lean Lewwyn as town right now.  Though Lewwyn was the one who posited Serial Killer after the night 1 results so perhaps he got cute with having extra game knowledge?

That all took me an hour to read and write up.  Have to get ready for other things, may not get back until after returning from the hike.

I agree with you that Lewwyn as scum raises some issues. The main thing driving it is I just don't like Lewwyn's argumentation. It's hard for me to evaluate myself if I'm reacting purely to his posting style, or if there's something there, but I thought I should put everything out there. I think that can fairly be described as me shaking a tree. 

The real forest, though, that we might perhaps be missing, are our night kills. I feel like there's information there that we haven't fully plumbed yet. Why was Gaspar targeted? Did El Grillo hide behind Gaspar and get unlucky, or was he hiding behind Cyneheard and got an unlucky vigilate shot? I have never played with a hider before, so I'm not sure how exactly it works. 

El Grillo: Well, I guess we don't know if he was Normal Hider or a Weak Hider. Either he hid behind Gaspar and was killed by the scum, or he hid behind Cyneheard and died to vigilante/weakness. I don't think he would have hid behind Gaspar - seems like a weak candidate given how active he was. Someone like Superdeath would have seemed safe enough from night action. Or Cyneheard - if he's so scummy, then he's unlikely to die from scum and El Grillo just gets unlucky iwth the vig shot. I'm not sure if there's any actionable intel I can tease out of this exchange. 

(Possibility: El Grillo was a weak hider, hid behind someone other than Cyne, who turned out to be scum? Note to self: reread El Grillo's posts for clues on this front). 

Gaspar: Why target Gaspar? WIFOM dangers here, but it seems foolish of the scum to knock off a villager who was only accusing other villagers. SO, let me get this post out, then go back and dig and react to the GKC & Rowain stuff, too. Sorry, I had to travel halfway through this post, if it seems out of date.