RB PBEM #2 - Justinian (SPOILERS!)

[Dreylin]

t109 - Industrial Era.

49g from Ruff ... not enough to keep me at 100% for the turn, so I'll have to drop in a turn at 0%.

Steel from Darrell, & Chemistry to SL.

I queue up Military Science and dial research down to 0%.

Constantinople: Caravel - MoM
Thessalonica: University - Drydock
Adrianople: Musket - Cannon
Nicaea: Caravel - Cannon
Nicomedia: Barraks - Drydock

GP due at EOT: ~60% Scientist, ~20% Prophet & ~20% Engineer.

Oooo, natural Buddhism spread into Iconium is a definite bonus!

So I'm going to tool certain cities for Army, and some for Military. 2 Basic Criteria - proximity to frontlines is one (closer = Army, further = Navy) and the second is production capability (lower prod will get Drydocks, higher prod work on land units):



So Adrianople & Nicaea are on Cannon, while Nicomedia & Thessalonica are building Drydocks. Antioch needs the Fort to be completed before any Navy produced there will be useful, so will work on Army. Constantinople will alternate a Barracks in next turn then a few units after MoM before Oxford is ready. (The 6th Uni will be built in Angora once the current Courthouse build is complete)

A civics switch should really be on the cards right now, but I think I'll stay in OrgRel at least until the Drydocks have finished and I'm starting to roll out ships. I may look at going to Caste or even Serfdom for a while since there's not much whipping going on in this GA....

Krill still doesn't have Astro which is really quite a surprise, and it doesn't look like Ruff has taken any techs from SL yet!?

Post-EOT pops a Scientist!

[Dreylin]

The e-mail from SL that I found in my box this morning and haven't posted yet because I haven't replied and I've been busy avoiding playing the turn because of all the fun and games with Krill and Darrell and do you like run-on sentences because I usually find them very annoying but for some reason I just decided to take this one as far as it can go and see what happens and whether anyone can be bothered to read to the end?

Ahem:

Hey Both,

I have just played my turn and at the end of it astro is due in 4t... I can't get it any quicker which sucks. I have a couple of Uni's finishing shortly that may mean a little tweaking can eek a turn off but I wouldn't have thought so.

I have requested Chem - thanks - makes those workshops worth having! If this was a game where we had some period of peace on our hands i would be wanting to research to communism for SP asap but not the case so I think Mil Sci is a good call. Grenadiers will also be good at helpiong us defend. (I forget if they have another pre req??). Ship of the line will halt him in the waters since they have no better counter till Ironclad - and those won't be able to reach us!

Other research goals should be Rifles (via PP of course) - Maybe I can get a GS to help bulb that although bulbing is getting to the end of its usefulness and GA's will most likely be a better use. Dreylin - thanks for your offer of a replacement GP the other day - If it come out correctly I'd like to take you up on it and fire my 2GP GA later on.

Ruff - thanks for the gold the last turn. The worker will finish his job of connecting the ivory at the end of next turn so i will return him after that.

Dreylin - I have 2 caravels that could come and help you out with battles with Krill - both are to the south of your 2nd island - how should they approach?

Btw - Krill contacted me the other day saying he wanted to talk... not sure what he had in mind so I am going to drop him an email - I think he is pissed at Darrell for playing both sides! Good news for us. How should I approach this? If I can persuade him to attack Darrell rather than Dreylin that would be a result although I don't know if that will be on the cards or not... Has he mentioned anything to you guys?

Anyhoo - gotta dash.
Cheers,
SL

And my reply to both:

Gents,

Steel in from Darrell, and Chem passed on to SL. Are you sure you don't want any techs Ruff?

Didn't have enough gold to run 100% Science this turn, so I dialed back down to 0%. That will get me up to enough gold for nearly 3t at 100%, and MilSci is saying ~5t to research. That'll change with the GA ending and a few more Unis coming online.

SL: Got a Scientist after EoT, which I'd like to keep for an Academy (another effect on the research time) if you're OK with that. If so, I'll tailor my next one to best meet your needs - within the possibilities available from my Wonders - let me know what sort of GP you'd most like and I'll run Specialists as best I can to get that type to pop.

Caravel support from South of Trebizond - Krill has at least one city to the East which none of us have seen, so be a bit cautious.

Cheers,

Dreylin.

Now to write a quick message to just SL....

[Dreylin]

And my message to SL:

Hey SL,

I was hoping to catch you around for a chat at some point today, but maybe we'll have to wait until tomorrow.

I've been chatting to both Darrell and Krill a bit recently, and a few things have come to light about the shape of their relationship which has me reassessing my position.

Did you know that they have a game-long NAP in place between them? Apparently it started 1-way in Krill's favour, but during the race for Liberalism Darrell managed to convince Krill to make it bi-lateral. The telling thing for me is that he did that while all the time planning to trade Steel out to us as well. It's that sort of double-dealing that really makes me distrust Darrell ... if he can do it to Krill now, there's no reason he won't do the same to us later.

Both of them are now after me(us?) to wage a proxy war against the other, and to be honest with you right now I'm leaning more towards siding with Krill than with Darrell. I'd like to have a chance to discuss it with you before I go much further in either direction because our Civs' relationship continues to be important to me, and to be perfectly honest I'd like a second opinion / perspective of the situation.

Either way rest assured that I intend to honour our existing agreements, and if we do end up parting ways I'm happy to negotiate for a peaceful future (or not if that's your preference).

Cheers,

Dreylin.

Not too many details, but the gist of the whole thing so he has an idea of where I'm coming from. Here's hoping we can chat sometime soon.

[Dreylin]

Not a chat, but we seem to be somewhat on the same page:

Hey Dreylin,

Thanks for your email - I appreciate your honesty.

The diplo is a bit of mess in this game at the moment and I think the strongest bond between two nations is probably ours. I would like for it to remain that way - we have managed to co-exist on our home island without any tension and I really think that stands us in good stead for the future. If I was an AI I would be highlighting our shared faith and tech trading ;-)

I would like to have a chat with Krill myself too - he has contacted me but we keep missing one another. I think him working nights is making it tricky! I wouldn't want Krill to sign peace with you and then to come straight after me - he has to go for Darrell! I'm sure that he can get out of his NAP based on the steel trading,.. PS - can I get some of that?

Lets have a chat about everything next time we both are free online.

Cheers,
SL

SL,

I don't think that Krill really has any interest in attacking you (or me for that matter) other than if we were acting against him. Right now he's pretty pissed at Darrell and looking to get some payback via a proxy. I don't get the impression he's ineterested in attacking either of us unless we're actively proxying for Darrell ... or if we leave a Caravel on his Fish! 9-)

If I do end up chosing Krill's side and you staying on Darrell's I'm sure we can work out a way that we don't come to direct blows. My immediate suggestion would be that we could agree to only fight along the Krill/Darrell border, that way we'd only be fighting the proxy war, and not directly between each other. Of course I'd much rather we stayed on the same side! 8-)

Cheers,

Dreylin.

[Dreylin]

Everyone got their ready?

Square: Hey Dreylin - you free?

me: Yeah
How's things?

Square: good - just chatting with Krill...

me: Ah, good
What do you think?

Square: INteresting.
I think he is going to nail Darrell

me: Oh yeah, he's found a loophole?

Square: Dunno - he seems to want justification more than anyrhing and is looking for suport
he is offerring me tech to wage a proxy war

me: heh, I was offered land


Square: I was at first but said it was the otherside of the world

me: Yeah, I'm trying to get him to cede some of his islands near me

Square: Are you at peace now?

me: not last turn
I've until his next turn to let him know which way I'm going to play
we're in a holding pattern until then

Square: so long as you don't cover his fish right? ;-)

me: Hey look, all 6 of us are online!
yeah :/

So here's how I see it:
Darrell & Krill are #1 & #2, but are currently prevented from going to war; they both want us to fight the war for them, and if we don't pick a side then we a) don't have a chance of knocking them back & b) probably get declared on anyway

Square: agreed

me: My feeling is that Krill is probably in a stronger position and needs knocking back more, but the way Darrell has been playing has never made me trust him, and the more I find out, the less I do
I will also admit to a dose of self-interest here, as I suspect that Krill can put a sizable dent in me before reinforcements arrive (plus I don't expect Darrell to provide sizeable reinforcements, preferring to secure his own position)

Square: I think you have it summized pretty well

Ok - so here is what I think from my perspective:
Neither Krill or Darrell are going to be threatening my core anytime soon however - had things continued as they were - Krill could have been a threat - not Darrell
Krill does need knocking back and him and Darrell bashing heads isn't a bad solution
I don't know how much support Krill would expect in return for what he is offering
I don't think that getting anymore cities the otherside of the world is a good thing atm - not until SP

me: I'd guess he's trying to get you to agree not to work with Darrell

Square: And we'd need enough for them to become self sufficient in defence; supply lines would be attrocious

me: I had an idea about that, actually

Square: Krill has offered me Astro now (and to you) plus steel to enter proxy war

me: you didn't get Steel from Darrell?

Square: nope - he hasn't sent it yet and i haven't requested.

me: Hmmm
well maybe he didn't notice

Square: it may be there now waiting - i haven't opened the save yet...

me: Ah
well I don't think you could get it before now

Square: btw - did you get Darrells email regarding tactics?

me: yeah
I've been studiously ignoring it

Square: me too... hope he doesn't fire up chat right now...

me: yeah!

Square: What did krill say to you about the whole steel thing? was he pissed at you at all?

me: didn't seem to be
mostly about how he'd been doing bits & bobs for Darrell most of the game and hadn't seen much reciprocal
then Darrell blackmailed him into the game-long NAP by threatening their Liberalism plan all the time planning to send it out anyway

Square: thats the impression i got to - he seems to take it all out on darrell

me: which is fair enough imo
I don't think we're to blame!

Square: I think they had victory conditions in their nap - darrell space or culture and krill dom
Darrell panicked and thought Krill was going to get it easy and shipped you steel...

me: Darrell told me that Krill had asked Darrell to rule out Culture
that last, was that from Darrell or Krill?
'cos if it was from Krill that implies he doesn't know that Darrell had planned to ship us Steel from almost the very start

Square: sorry - was what from krill or darrell?

me: the bit about Darrell panicking

Square: neither - my interp

me: ah
that would make sense if they'd specified VCs
all I've heard about that is Darrell saying that Krill got him to rule out Culture as part of bi-lateralling the NAP
You still talking to Krill btw?

Square: just stopped but can fire it up again

me: no need
you reach a conclusion with him?

Square: No - I said i would need to think - I did say though that I wasn't interested in actively supporting Darrell
I wanted to discuss with you first

At the end of the day - I think we should enter into something with krill that benefits both of us
Certainly not a game long NAP though ;-) they just seem to be trouble!

Just fired up civ and no steel :-(

me: I think I tend to agree with the first, and definitely with the second!
So do we negotiate with Krill together, or separately?
Oh, and we still owe Darrell Astro as part of the Steel deal

Square: I would prefer together - we are stronger together
otherwise we are two smaller civs as opposed to one big one. (compare to him - no disrespect meant ;-)

me: sure
So what would be your goal from the deal?

Square: btw - i have ivory to offer now - i'll put through a deal for health - cow i think?

me: Or Crabs, whichever

Square: crabs - for sure

me: thought so!

Square: I have harbours not suiper markets!

me: indeed
though I do see you have Crabs to net soon

Square: once again - my nation is not designed for war so the main goal is security.

me: Sure
you want to gain territory?

Square: Should we talk about where ruff fits in?

me: Hmmm
I must admit I've been assuming he's with Darrell
Are you looking for a tech alliance with him, or arranging research / trades as and when?

Square: Dunno - I thin he owes me still...
I wonder if i can get a decent nap out of him and call the debt over...

me: I'm just trying to get an idea of how our negotiations might go

Square: sure

me: personally, tech is of less interest

Square: land?

me: Yeah
& security

Square: Krill said this:

np. As I've said before, I'm not really interested in Darrells' land, but someone has to have some of it. Dreylin has also said he doesn't really want any of it, so has asked that I cede him some land that I have next to him for his help. However, if you got your FP down,youcould quite easily make Darrells'gold island, and Yaz's old land productive if youwanted them

And:

fwiw, though
If there is going to be land redistribution however if I don't have to give up land I've alreadysettled, I don't mindif someone else has Darrellscore
and I wouldn't mind not gaining anything land wise so if you and Dreylin were to joinin, you'd both get a good 5, 6 cities out of it

me: Of course that also serves to cripple us financially (at least temporarily)


Square: yep - unless we beeline comm while krill acquires the land...

me: BTW, did your Caravels S of Trebizond spot land?

Square: there is land directly south of it - maybe 5 squares
not seen any other land yet but not passed treb yet

me: sure

So as far as a land split goes
my idea was to let Krill have more of Darrell's land in exchange for several of his nearer cities (which he mentioned)

another idea I'd had was to tie any further colonies into a deal whereby he had to attack my core first
i.e. force him to attack West before he could threaten cities to his East
kinda quest-like I guess
"You must take 4 core cities before you can attack the colonies"

Square: ha ha
yeah - I'm not sure he would go for that
If Krill kills Darrell - the world is going to be a dangerous place
He will have an army and no one to use it on

me: maybe not, but it'd be worth a try

Square: We could say he has to kill ruff before sttacking us?

me: Well unless he finds his loophole, the idea was that he'd feed troops to me, which I'd then use on Darrell
at least that's what we'd be talking about
that'd be an option too ... though not nice to poor Ruff!

Square: I know
hee hee
I'm just going to play the turn
For now I will research Astro so we can give it to Darrell
Will you give me steel or should i request from darrell?
The offer krill gave me for astro and steel is peanuts - i'm sure we'll get better

me: We need to live up to our bargain with Darrell
though he's probably going to feel hard-done by since he fed us gold as well
We may have to owe him something
*want to

Square: yep - not as much as i hoped though - i only got 100g from him for astro - ruff supplied 250g

me: ah, yeah that's not good
I only got 100g from him as well
as far as Ruff goes, has he asked you for any tech yet?

Square: shuold i throw him astro too?
not specifically but I sent him Philo for nought

me: We probably owe Ruff some tech

Square: Darrell gave him a load i think

me: but no idea what
ah

Square: haven't kept track

me: you should ask for Steel from Darrell
actually, just ask from me
the deal was that we'd share the tech around, so you getting it from me is no different

Square: too late... unless i replay...

me: nah

Square: can you recall a diplo?

me: nope
tell you what
if I remember, I'll offer it to you myself
then you can accept on your turn and have it for builds, etc.

Square: If i request it and you accept in a min - will darrell still get the diplo?

me: yes
but it'll be empty
the tech won't show up

Square: I can do that and send darrell a message in game that i got it from you.

me: that works too

Square: There was text saying astro due in 3t...
he'll just see that

me: fair enough

Square: ok - done that
put through ivory deal
and cancellled stone

me: cool

Square: I'll ask for a map trade too
we can then have a look at what we know of darrells land

me: I was going to ask for that myself


Square: would you be cool with me trading maps with Krill? - not sure if it is worth it but will give us a good idea of the world...
say no if not

me: once we've got his agreement, then yeah we'll need to
but not before, since he has only a limited idea of the lay of our land

Do you want to try and grab Krill and chat about a deal, or do we want to e-mail it?
Chat advantage = we are both there + speed
e-mail = we agree on mutual position before going forward

Square: Ok - I don't have much time now but will be about most of tomorrow 10am BST - 5pm BST
lets sleep on it and catch up tomorrow? If needs be we can hold onto the save next turn until something is sorted?

me: seems fair enough

Square: just buzz me when you are free.

me: I need to let Krill know at least which way I'm going before he gets next turn
if he's chatty, I'll let him know that we're negotiating together and see what he has to say, then maybe put some ideas into an e-mail to you
sound OK?

Oh, and think about whether you want to formalise something between us as well

Square: ok - I'm off to bed now - catch you tomorrow. - I'll just upload the save...

me: 'night!

So in summary, we're going to agree to be Krill's proxies in a war against Darrell ... terms still to be determined.

[Dreylin]

Letting Krill know:

me: you around?

krill.krill: I'm here
yes

me: Cool
SL & I chatted

krill.krill: cool

me: We're willing to proxy for you
vs. Darrell

krill.krill: Awesome!

me: Details to work out and suchlike, but we're onboard

krill.krill: ok

me: (& my NAP to expire)
We still owe Darrell Astro as part of a previous trade

krill.krill: oh?

me: so SL will finish that off

krill.krill: backstabbing bastard
I owe that to him as well
well

me: heh

krill.krill: we were working on a deal, anyway
I'm happpy to give you astro to trade to him
and SL researches something else that isn;t traded to him

me: hmm, well we'd have to talk about that

krill.krill: Well,the offer is there

me: OK, well SL and I plan to have another summit tomorrow to work out our negotiating position

but I had a deadline

krill.krill: Would it be helpful if I made a couple of extra points?

me: yes

krill.krill: I would be interested in setting out some tech trades
And beyond that, not really interested in much

me: So basically the land is ours to divvy up?

krill.krill: Well, if you don't want anything that I already have, sure
Arguably Darrells' mainland city next to my land would be pretty crippled to either of you, but I am happy to not claim it

me: Yeah

krill.krill: If you want some of my land, then I'd have to request that I get some of Darrells land, but that would be negoitiated over

me: sure, that's what I expected
and you'd supply a bulk of the troops?
I assume we'd discuss how best to go about the attack and who builds what, etc.

krill.krill: I can go to a proper war footing, yeah. As I said before, it is best if I mainly make boats because they will be uber powerful and Darrell can't compete with them
Even on equal tech
But I'm not really fussed

me: I'd suggest SL builds Galleons, I build land units, you build Frigates & some land

krill.krill: Works for me
fwiw
I'm working tomorrow and Tuesday
SoI'll be leaving home at 1900 GMT

me: OK, well SL and I will work something out
BTW, you want me to offer Peace/Cease Fire, or stay at war for the time being?

krill.krill: up to you. Arguably better to stick at war though

me: That was my thinking too

krill.krill: Question: Considering how Darrell has acted (and now in light of the Astro bollocks) do you think the NAP between me and him means anything at all? Would other people hold it against me if I declared on him?

me: I honestly don't know
That's probably one for the lurkers
(who won't answer)

krill.krill: Well, proxy war, real war...

me: yeah, there's that
but in the terms of community perception, maybe you have a bit more to do

krill.krill: yeah, thinking of that

So we're committed now, even if we haven't ironed out all the details. Of course I started to get really worried when Krill said he might go to war himself ... much rather he feeds troops to me & SL to use!

[Dreylin]

t110 - 1000AD and still kickin'

A diploscreen from Ruff, seems he's decided it's time to ask for techs after all: Philo, Edu, Guilds & Theo. Well Philo & Edu aren't mine to give, so I'll have to refuse the whole trade, but I think I can hand over the others so I'll just re-offer with a note.

Steel to SL, confirm the Crabs-Ivory trade & a World Map trade.

Trebizond: Caravel - Buddhist Monastery
Constantinople: switch to Barracks

My Great Scientist is called Al-Khwarizmi - whom Wikipedia tells me was the founder of Algebra - and he quickly sets up an Academy in Constantinople. Without a note from SL yet about what he's after, I'll keep running the two Scientists & Engineer.

With some money in the bank I can dial up to 100% - Military Science now due in 4t at -102gpt.

Aha, so there is a second city hiding down there:



I guess it's time to redirect my EPs; currently running parallel with Krill but lost visibility on Darrell's research, so full in that direction. He'll get Econ (& another GM) next turn.

[Dreylin]

Here's the e-mail Darrell sent last night that we were both avoiding:

Guys,

Can we try to get together to IM on tech strategy and logistics? Failing that, I guess we can discuss over e-mail...

Darrell

But then he nabbed both of us separately on chat this morning:

Darrell: hey you around?

me: brain not working yet, but yeah

Darrell: oh yeah, you're british but EST...forgot about that
SL shows online trying to get him as well
I figure we need to start coordinating techs and builds
he says he has a meeting in 10 minutes but will be on in about 4-5 hours?
Is that time okay for you?

me: no promises, but I should be around

Darrell: okay I'll try and setup a group chat then

me: OK

Doesn't seem like we'll be able to keep things secret for very long....

[Dreylin]

I forwarded last night's chat with Krill to SL this morning:

Morning SL,

I forgot to send this last night. Don't know what I think of getting Astro from Krill and then sending it on to Darrell; seems kind-of underhanded, but then again it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for us to duplicate research unless absolutely necessary.

If we confirmed that neither Darrell nor Ruff could see your research, then we could always just keep to the timetable for delivery that they are expecting - i.e. Krill gifts to you in 2t, then you spread it around. Meanwhile, you could run a turn of gold that would allow me to finish off MilSci.

Oh, Ruff requested Guilds, Theo, Edu & Philo from me last turn. I re-offered Guilds & Theo, but told him that you had the keys to Edu and Philo and I couldn't pass them on. I expect he'll be after Gunpowder and then Chem over the next few turns, but I'm not exactly sure how much we owe him? If we did give him everything up to Chemistry, then maybe we'll at least keep him friendly when we switch sides...

As for land rights between us and Krill; you'll see that he says that Darrell's land would basically be ours to divvy up between us. If you really don't want any of Darrell's lands (even Yaz's old stomping ground), then I could cede rights to the area south of Trebizond?

Anyway, I'm not very awake right now (even though I'm too awake to be asleep) so I may not be making a whole lot of sense. 8-)

Cheers,

Dreylin.

and got the following reply:

Morning Dreylin,

First of all - go to bed! ;-)

Reading the chat with Krill he asked about breaking the NAP to you too... He is battling with his conscience there since he asked me the same. I think he does have a leg to stand on because trading Steel to the enemy is pretty underhand - i'll leave it to him to decide though.

Regarding Ruff - I will send him philo (I thought i had for some reason - must have been something else...) and Education. I think he is going to be more on Darrell's side of things and so we need to suss him out. What is he going to do when everything goes public? If he attacks me that would be poo. I think a couple of Frigates/SoL in the waters between us would be enough for now - lets not send him Chemistry yet - he will get it from Darrell in time i'm sure.

Regarding Tech: I am happy to run gold and get astro from Krill to then pass on to Darrell - so long as Krill doesn't mind. I can then crack on with nationalism which I already have some invested in.

Regarding GP: I would like a GM or GE really, a GP wouldn't be the end of the world.

And lastly - Land with Krill...

I am not interested in Darrells old core but am interested in Yaz's old core. There is also an island to the north with gold on it that Darrell has settled. Perhaps I could take that also and you have Darrells core and surrounds?

Oh and lastly again - The plan for me to build Galleons is fine - I'll set some drydocks up asap.

Cheers,
SL

Sorry if i missed anything...

And then we chatted:

Square: argh!

me: yeah

Square: I put him off for 4-5 hrs...

me: yeah, he's trying to get me as well

Square: at least
ha ha - i feel like i'm 5 and i'm running away from the kids at school coz they have the lurgie!

me: hehe
I know what you mean; time for some "invisible" on g-chat!

Square: yep
what are we going to do though - he will come knocking again

me: tbh, I think we should tell him sooner rather than later
I have a NAP with him which is due to expire on t120

Square: yeah - what exactly though? that we are going to be attacking him?
My nap is a little different... I need to look up the terms

me: he's going to ask for an extension fairly soon

Square: mine is rolling with x-t cooldown - need to check what that is but i think it is 15t

me: Well, I think that no matter how little we tell him, he's going to jump the conclusion we're conspiring against him
Well, there's probably no need for you actually to war with him

Square: nah - but if i am warring by proxy i cannot have a NAP. Thats shady

me: My feeling is that we should just tell him that we've come to a deal with Krill

Square: and leave it at that.
i really wonder what ruff will do...

me: yeah

Square: I know he really appreciated me helping him out so much when Yaz was bearing down on him - but he also has a good relationship with Darrell
Darrell is going to pounce on him once he realises what is happening!

me: Well we could play it this way:
tell them that we have a close-cooperation deal (we don't have anything official, but that's how I'm approaching it)
I've decided to side with Krill, but you're staying mostly neutral

Square:

ARTICLE XI
This Treaty shall remain in force until it is the opinion of both Parties that the treaty is no longer required, in which case the Treaty shall terminate 15 turns after such agreement has been reached

that is my NAP with darrell
and ruff

me: urgh

Square: they even put in articles!
he he

me: "both Parties" implies that it has to be a bi-lateral decision to cancel!?

Square: it does say both parties...
I'll maybe need to work on that with Darrell but if I am not actually warring...

me: yeah
I'd imagine that you'd gift the Galleons, which I'd load with troops

Square: That is the same article that is in Ruff and Darrells agreement though

me: so as long as we can account for payment, etc.
(at least "publicly")

Square: yeah - then move them onto Krill and either gift - or you fight - depending on what happens with Krill - darrells nap

me: yeah

Square: yeah - I am effectively selling you boats
just for nothing... ;-)

me: well tech & suchlike

Square: sure

me: & land down the road...

Square: what did you think of my land proposal?
I don't have civ on this comp so cannot check exactly
my thread isn't exactly the best place to look either....

me: heh
just having a look:

So there's Seattle on Krill's border - which will be mostly useless once his borders pop
then there are 4+ cities on their shared continent
a 2-city island to the SE
a 1-city island between him and Yaz-land
the Fish/Gold island to the North
then however much of Yaz-land he has claim to
(probably Persepolis - North)

Square: So in total there are probably ~14 cities

me: Well he has 13 now

Square: ok - maybe room for a couple more
do you really think that krill doesn't want any?

me: probably
though I'm going to see if I can trade some of them
for continental space

Square: ah - so ones on darrells core for ones closer to you?

me: that's what I'd been thinking

Square: are the ones near you any good?

me: Seattle particularly would be usuless to me
meh, mostly fishing villages

Square: yeah - it either need to be his or razed and not re-settled leaving a buffer zone

me: I think the general intent of the land split is good
I'd like one of the Golds, but I'll have Darrell's Sugar to trade

Square: sure - I'm happy to trade resources
you mentioned in your email formalising things between us.
What did you have in mind?
Our nap is perpetual atm
with 15t cooldown i think

me: TBH I'd lost track of our deals


Square: me too - certainly with techs

me: I've been acting as if we had full tech-sharing

Square: yep - me too
I'm happy to continue that

me: oh definitely me too

Square: if you are happy how things are then lets leave it - no need to fix something that ain't broken

me: fair enough

Square: so long as we continue as we are then I don't see there being a problem.

me: sounds good

Square: btw - I have yet to fully scout it - but the island due south of treb - yours or mine?

me: Well I must admit I've been thinking of that area as mine
but I'm open to negotiation
arguably, it's closer to you
but I've probably less space to expand locally

Square: ok - i'll take a look later tonight and see whats what - the only thing i am interested in is the sheep... If you have the city - can i have the sheep?

me: yeah, sure
I have a Sheep still to settle to my NE

Square: cool

[Dreylin]

Ah well, I got nabbed:

Darrell: still there?

me: yeah

Darrell: So our nap expries what turn? I think yo uwent back and checked it out?

me: yeah
t120

Darrell: so around 10t longer

me: we signed a 30t flat agreement on t90

Darrell: I guess I am looking for some assurance you won't be joining Krill against me, and nothing says that like extending our NAP
Or at least adding a 10t cooldown to the end

me: well tbh I'm looking to keep my options open right now

Darrell: mmm
You realize I could have held steel back and been in Krill's camp, and that I went out on a pretty big limb, right? I hope that at least factors in whatever decision you make.

me: yeah, it will certainly factor in

Darrell: Okay, and I would also request that before you make any committment to krill you give me a chance to argue for an alternative

me: 'k

Darrell: don't you want to at least give me an indication of which way you are leaning, for my peace of mind?

me: would it give you peace of mind if I said I was leaning towards Krill?

Darrell: no, that would make me sad and depressed
my own fault for not locking you down before sending steel over, that would be a nice lesson learned I guess
what's leaning you that way?

me: partly a dose of self-preservation
I'd definitely lose in the initial encounters

Darrell: hmm...my power at exactl that far from Kril's...and I have certain arrangements with the other parties in teh game that might work in my favor.
I can't tell you more about that without getting permission

me: but you're NAP'd with Krill, so not much use in preventing me from being dissected...
& any reinforcements you sent would take ages to get to me

Darrell: there is another way, though
I could gift you an island city near me, and get you troops that way
if you are threatening krill...
the alternative isn't much different too
if he is giving you his army, he has to go all the way to you then you have to come all the way back to me

me: hmmmm

Darrell: I get the feeling you know something you aren't tellilng me...is he planning on attacking me directly?

me: I know lots of things...
but that, I don't know either way

Darrell: okay
well I will just mention once again I trusted you big time with the steel trade, making krill an enemy
I hope that trust gets repaid "properly", although Im sure its going to get repaid one way or another

me: heh

Well that pretty-much went how I'd expected but note that what he's saying he should have done is withhold Steel until I agreed to a NAP - i.e. use blackmail to change a deal that was already in place to be more in his favour....