WW47: Small Mafia Shenanigans

[Meiz]

Damn, Brick edited the vote tally thus making my joke fail miserably 

[WarriorKnight]

Kaiser, I do appreciate your effort to start generating discussion, for that I won't put my vote on you for now. But that doesn't change the fact that I still think this does not help us catch wolves and asking questions/applying pressure is better, for reasons that Meiz explained far better than I could.

[T-hawk]

Correct and while I'm glad everyone has now checked in, 1 post is hardly better than 0.

I know, I was just checking in late last night, not exhaustively analyzing. I've got some work to do right now but I'll pick through everything in detail in the next few hours.

[pindicator]

It will be interesting to see if you can keep that streak this game as well. My lurker intuition last game would have been Bob or Superdeath on day 1, mostly due to their horrible participation and non help in the discussion. While both were bad intuitions, I believe they were neither good townies.

What is your take on the role reveal discussion ongoing? 

That statements like these look like they are trying to bait me into divulging whether or not I have a role power  

[Alhambram]

Luckily I think surviving is less important than making sure that some villager survive. For that purpose getting as much information is in my opinion the best course of action, even if it means that you are being in danger of being nightkilled or lynched.

I think that is where my problem lies: I mostly have played single player games or mulitplayer games against others where everyone are enemies. I am not used to be team player, that is a thing that I need to learn too.
I also did have a wrong assumption that it is better for villagers to have so many villagers survive as possible to maintain voting advantage and not to lose. But sometimes it turns out that it is better to remove some villagers to narrow down the search for scum.
So I need to remove idea of not dying for myself but sometimes sacrifice myself for greater good in this type of games.

Out of the openings so far.

Still awaiting some inputs from three players who hasn't posted yet.

Pindicator has a point though, El Grillo's question list is not only good way to start discussion but also for fishing out which potential newbies can be used to lure into mislynch.

Well, it is my first time ever playing werewolf/mafia type game, so I am quite pessimitic about my chances to survive, likely to be lynched at day 1 or killed at night 1, or by some miracle standing alive at end of game either victorious or losing.
And I have no idea how start this all and El Grillo's list is a good place to start as I stated in before. But I am not 100% sure whether he did have good intentions with that list, after all he is a veteran while I am complete newbie.
So the list may be a way to check who has played some werewolfs offline too aside online. I answered honestly: never. Therefore I am most logical useful idiot to coerce into mislynch and I rather to avoid being used like that.

This seems like quite a strong accusation on what I see as a neutral opening. El Grillo could easily be doing this as helpful town, or as neutral wolf play, but the possibly malicious intent seems far fetched. I get a feeling that Alhambra is pressured here to give out a suspicion and a vote based on it, and following along the initial prod by Pindicator is easy step for wolf if Pindicator is town.

I argee with you that my tone did sound strong, I wasn't conscious enough to realize that that tone matter too. Due lack of team playing game as explained above, I percieved everyone as possible enemy and every word that they write might have malicious intent hiding behind them.
At this moment as I write, a thought crossed me that Pindicator might set me up resulting in easy mislynch for village while he gets away with it, but again it might sound farfetched too.
I admit that I feel pressured, but that is because it is first time that I am standing at stage. Next time when new werewolf/mafia game appears I think that it shall bother me less.
I can't turn back clock and I have to live with consequences for my strong statement against El Grillo which started lynch train against me.

I will say that I agree that a strong tell for Newbie Wolves might be them too eagerly jumping on existing arguments (ironic I know), so on that basis right now I'm probably most suspicious of Alhambram for being so quick to join the Pindicator -> El Grillo train, and I'm not particularly convinced by their "I'm going to die anyway" line of thinking.

Honestly, it can said same about Newbie Villagers jumping too eagerly on arguments. And unlike Pindicator who did ask question and Meiz correctly calling out my tone, you seem to jump on lynch Alhambram train bit too easy, Amicalola.

[Alhambram]

For discussion about roles, I argee with most people that day 1 gives too little information about roles.
Mostly after first night a good guessing game for villagers can start, scum already can guess somewhat by their own roles from start.
Therefore for villagers with role, it is better to hid thier roles as long as possible to avoid being killed or mislynched by wolves/villagers.

[Alhambram]

Damn, Brick edited the vote tally thus making my joke fail miserably 

Good try by the way.

[El Grillo]

Catching up on the overnight discussion.

Kaiser, Meiz, and WarriorKnight did some role/setup/behavior speculation. I agree with Meiz that in this semi-open setup we're better served coming back to this later once we know more from flips and have night actions to discuss. For now I'd prefer to focus on votes and the stated reasons for them. There have been a couple of votes that stand out to me:

1) Amicola's vote on Alhambram. I can't tell if the wishy-washy nature of Amicalola's posts (especially the last line of #43 and the whole of #65) is him honestly feeling hesitant or scum trying hard not to commit to a read early one way or another. Scum can use this as a way to skate for a bit and then wait for an opportunistic mislynch, and to me that's what his Alhambram vote looks like.

2) Thrawn's going pindicator to no-lynch back to pindicator. Thrawn's play still seems inconsistent to me, last time I chatted with him he said he was still waiting for pindicator to answer his and Kaiser's question, which pindicator did in #52. Thrawn then voted 'no lynch' which could be interpreted either as being satisfied with pindicator's response, or just demonstrating the mechanic, and then takes a tangent to ask a question about cops roleclaiming before coming back to vote pindicator again in #75. His stated question to pindicator is asking for some reads, but pindicator already did that in #52, so it's not really a prod-for-discussion. If that were really thrawn's aim, why not direct it at someone like T-hawk, who had at the time actually given no reads?

Speaking of which, I'd like to ask for reads from T-Hawk, Kaiser, and Meiz.

T-Hawk, you haven't said much of anything yet. You did say during pre-game setup that you'd be out on Sunday, but your two posts upon arrival leave me wanting more.

Kaiser, are you ready to move on from role speculation (your stated reason for your WarriorKnight votes)? As Meiz and WK have said already, it's easy for both town and scum to say true things about roles and setup. To that I'll add that it's a way for scum to post what looks like content while completely ignoring the player interactions going on around them. Aside from your null lean on Amicalola in #69, you've written two long posts with little to say about any of us.

Meiz, you've posted a lot and clearly have a lot (maybe even the most?) experience among us here, but a lot of your posts are also about the role/setup discussion. Have any reads besides Alhambram?

[T-hawk]

Yeah, work tied me up this morning and I'm catching up now.  Should be regularly online the rest of today (US Eastern).

Starting with Grillo's questionnaire - that could be just to start discussion or yeah it could be bait from a wolf.  It does strike me as being at least a bit more likely than the plain 2:7 odds.

Thrawn's vanilla village claim - he said he had a few in-person games (as do I), and that's what you do, everybody starts by saying they're vanilla villager.  What actually strikes me is the vanilla part of the claim.  Like I say with reverse-engineering Codenames clues, why would what you said have come to mind?  If he's a wolf then it feels like a power wolf trying to cover up the power.  I'm voting thrawn based on this and his other responses -- we might have little to lose if he's a vanilla villager but a lot to gain by potentially getting a power wolf right away.

Alhambram's "I'm just trying to play, don't hurt the newbie" is also what you do in person, both when it's true and when it's wolf cover.  I'm OK not rushing on that just yet but it's on my radar.

I like Meiz's discussion about the roles, what the setups can be and which people have them, that sounds like the real town work and good way to get started.  Suggesting targets for them is what we can do now.  If we have a tracker or cop (that's 4 out of the 9 setups if I'm reading it right?), I think he'd do well to try Thrawn or Grillo, they seem like the swingy places to get the most information.

Same for Kaiser's outline of the day sequence and when it gets to lylo - that's the stuff I and the other newbies aren't familiar with.  I get Grillo's point that anyone can discuss the roles and setup, but these do help.

Conversely, Pindicator seems like he's trying to cast random suspicion rather than actually helping us.

WarriorKnight has been poking people to encourage participation, but going back through I can't actually see anything to read either way, he's been pretty null so far.

[Kaiser]

There is a pressure vote just for the sake of voting (like WarrioKnight is now doing) and a pressure vote based on concrete suspicion (like the votes against Alhambram now). Now everyone has a chance to try to identify if the suspicions are legit, or if someone is trying to take an easy way of hopping along against town. If Alhambram is wolf, the votes can be very telling later in the game. And I think the latter type of votes gets the game rolling on day 1 even if Alhambram would not be a wolf. You can disapprove how D1 went last game, but to me Bob seemed innocent and both SK & a wolf made a push on town-Adrien, which IMO was their downfall later in the game. So that day1 went very well and that would not have been accomplished with role discussions.

Just to be clear, I am not against pressure voting, either to generate participation or to follow up on concrete suspicion. On the contrary, I agree that reading vote patterns and arguments for changing votes in certain circumstances will bring us the main clues, especially at the beginning of the game.
I just think that starting the discussion based on roles would have been a good idea as there is also content beyond the voting paterns and arguments for votes, namely possible contradictions at later role claims.

Kaiser, your last post generated a false positive vote. It helps if you are going to use red text outside of voting, to put it in quotes so it isn't picked up as a false positive.

Sorry, I will avoid red colour

That statements like these look like they are trying to bait me into divulging whether or not I have a role power  

Hm, I do not see where I do this with my statement, especially as I stated at other places already that I do not want anybody to divulge their roles, even when participating in the role discussion.

I think that is where my problem lies: I mostly have played single player games or mulitplayer games against others where everyone are enemies. I am not used to be team player, that is a thing that I need to learn too.
I also did have a wrong assumption that it is better for villagers to have so many villagers survive as possible to maintain voting advantage and not to lose. But sometimes it turns out that it is better to remove some villagers to narrow down the search for scum.
So I need to remove idea of not dying for myself but sometimes sacrifice myself for greater good in this type of games.

Do not get me wrong, it is important to keep as many villagers allive as possible to maintain voting advantage. I just mean it does not have to be you or me if this gives information to the village helping to identify wolves.

Btw. does anybody know what would happen during lynch if there are 2 wolves and 2 villagers left?
No lynch due to tie or is there some kind of a tie breaker?

Kaiser, Meiz, and WarriorKnight did some role/setup/behavior speculation. I agree with Meiz that in this semi-open setup we're better served coming back to this later once we know more from flips and have night actions to discuss. For now I'd prefer to focus on votes and the stated reasons for them. There have been a couple of votes that stand out to me:

Speaking of which, I'd like to ask for reads from T-Hawk, Kaiser, and Meiz.

Kaiser, are you ready to move on from role speculation (your stated reason for your WarriorKnight votes)? As Meiz and WK have said already, it's easy for both town and scum to say true things about roles and setup. To that I'll add that it's a way for scum to post what looks like content while completely ignoring the player interactions going on around them. Aside from your null lean on Amicalola in #69, you've written two long posts with little to say about any of us.

It seems there is a majority for stopping the role topic, at least for the moment, so I will leave it for the moment.
I am happy to give some reads later tonight or tomorrow, depending on how dinner and evening plan for my wife and son look like.

Same for Kaiser's outline of the day sequence and when it gets to lylo - that's the stuff I and the other newbies aren't familiar with.  I get Grillo's point that anyone can discuss the roles and setup, but these do help.

I am happy that it helped, please double check it though as I was counting days and nights on my fingers and was unsure about the tie rulings.