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Have Paladins been over nerfed?

Yeah I find Bards quite weak too. Just yesterday, I tried to have a Bard support my Elven Lords. The result? She got skewered horribly and died on turn 2, failing to be of much help to my Lords. They were able to take the city just fine on their own, they just needed two consecutive assaults.
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Quote:I dunno, Holy Bonus in general is underwhelming to me. Only affecting normal units in a game that's all about fantastic creatures? Meh.

Holy Bonus affects all units, including Fantastic Creatures. (Angel also has the ability and buffs itself)
Maybe the problem is not affecting ranged attack which does make it useless for ranged units. (they also don't need the defense as much if they stay away from the enemy)

However I'm worried if it affected ranged attack that would become too powerful.

Quote:The only Realm that has any + Hit buffs are in Life, and it also has strong +atk buffs in the form of Heroism and Lionheart. Nature with Adamantium, or Chaos with Flame Blade/Blazing March add attack power.

Chaos with Soul Linker adds + To Hit, and with the revamped item cost system, using a hero in Chaos should be viable. I can't think of anything else that adds + To Hit though right now, so I have to agree this does benefit using ELven Lords.

Quote:Also, the AI doesn't target Paladins? That's quite strange, I seem to recall it always being targeted first regardless what other units are on the battlefield.
The AI targets the thing it can deal the most damage to in general. Paladins have reasonably high defense (7) compared to most other units. Crusaders however have Large Shield so if the enemy uses ranged units, they will not target the crusaders.
Pikemen should work fine.

Overall, the problem is if I were to speak in RPG terms, the Elven Lord is a single-class unit - it's specialized at fighting in melee. The Paladin is dual-class - it's nearly as good at fighting as Elven Lords but is also does support. Obviously the latter is less cost-effective if you only need a fighter.

There are many different things we could do.

1. Make Holy Bonus affect ranged.
This makes sense but I'm worried it might be too powerful. Stacking buffs on ranged attack is very powerful. This decision isn't specific to Paladins and will also affect the Angel, Archangel and the Bard and Chosen heroes. However we did do the same thing to Heavenly Light in the past which worked fine, and ranged units are generally less good on the offense due to not getting the first turn.
2. If "ranged is always better" that might indicate the AI isn't efficient at using the spells that counter ranged attacks, in particular Guardian Wind, Elemental Armor, Resist Elements, and Invisibility. As all of these now work in automatic combat, it might be a good idea to teach the AI to use these spells more if they are fighting an enemy that has a lot of units with missile or magic ranged attacks. (that might even help them banish/defeat other AIs because it counters the most common garrisoning strategies)
Note : we can do this only for CoM II.
3. We can lower the price of Paladins (to 200?). This basically means the Holy Bonus is free and the "price" is just the fact you have to play High Men with all the disadvantages that brings (low resistance units, bad unrest tables).
4. We can make Paladins slightly stronger. Probably +1 defense is the most we can do without making the unit completely broken. This indirectly buffs the Call to Arms spell.
5. We can split the roles by adding a new unit. Paladins lose Holy Bonus and we add a new unit - Bishop maybe? - that has good defense, and hit points, has Holy Bonus, but very minimal attack strength(s). Basically an upgrade of Priests.
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IMO if the Paladins are primarily intended to be support, their stats should be altered to reflect that. They should get some extra defense and be cheaper, considering the huge initial cost gate to start producing them. As for Call to Arms, not sure what to do with it. I would say that if it's intended to be a very rare combat summon, it needs to be a lot more durable, considering the types of units encountered on that tier. Perhaps it can summon an elite tier Paladin with +2 to defend or something?
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Paladins are the only Armorer's Guild tier unit in the race so no, they are not primary support, they just have that as an additional feature.
Call to Arms is a great spell that doesn't need to be better. It gives Life the ability to summon units in-combat which the realm doesn't normally do and is its primary weakness.
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After playing with High Men some more, I believe the ideal solution would be to nerf the creation and maintenance cost of Paladins to be the same level as the Elven Lords. For what they provide, 240 gold and 5 gold/turn is way too costly. Trying to insist they aren't a support unit makes no sense when the only reason they are priced so high, according to you, is because of their Holy Bonus.
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Like I said they are a unit with TWO uses. So you pay for BOTH. Even if the primary use is fighting and the secondary is supporting, the secondary role is inclided in the price.

Anyway, I already did 1 and 2 for CoM II, and probably will do 1 for CoM I.

We can do 3 (reducing cost) in addition but only if enough players agree it's necessary. So far we have 1 vote for that, yours.
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I mean, I just saw two Paladins get owned by a pack of two Ghouls and a Werewolf, despite having Heroism on them both. So to me, it seems like they are actually rather weak at fighting.
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Was that werewolf enchanted by blood lust or something? You did have magic weapons on your paladins?
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My Paladins had magic weapons. I finally got rid of the lair by getting a Paladin to go with two Knights and having one of them bait the ghouls into focusing him down.
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I agree that Paladins should get a cost and possibly maintenance reduction. I use them sparingly, primarily as a one of garrison unit. I think they should have higher resistance as well purely for theme.


If you want to make them special again you could grant a penalized exorcist attack (+2 or 3 to opposing resistance I think would work) or a single casting of a spell (exorcism, healing, or bless would all be on theme).


Exorcist on a multi unit attack might be too much even with a penalty, I haven't run the numbers, or even thought it through all the way, just a nice flavor solution.
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