[Spoilers] PBEM 2 Lurker Discussion - No Players!

[regoarrarr]

I don't know that I'm ruling out Dreylin and SL deciding to work with Darrell over Krill just yet. Though certainly they haven't shown me anything that says that they ARE going to do that - I'm just not ruling it out just yet.

Dreylin especially seems to be somewhat on the fence

[sunrise089]

Would gifting cities to avoid a war that is then immediately declared via your fleet being sunk by the person you gifted the cities to after you moved said fleet based on their directions be better or worse than what happened to Slaze after he gifted his army to Athlete?

[pocketbeetle]

Would gifting cities to avoid a war that is then immediately declared via your fleet being sunk by the person you gifted the cities to after you moved said fleet based on their directions be better or worse than what happened to Slaze after he gifted his army to Athlete?

Good question.
I'm going for better, but it's a pretty close call.

And now some commentary on what is obvious: why trading Steel to Dreylin was a Bad Idea. Krill was a true ally, and those are worth their weight in gold. You want to have someone who is supporting you for the right reasons. I traded Steel to Dreylin, who was just an ally of convenience and basically ended up with no allies. It was really stupid . I paid quite a price for it too, however it will now be highly satisfying taking it to Dreylin.

Darrell

Been meaning to say this.
Darrell hit it nearly spot on with this post.

My only addition would be - timing.

He got overly worried about Krill stomping the others and acted too soon.
If he felt he absolutely had to gift the Steel, then he should've waited for Krill and Dreylin to get properly stuck in, the grudges on either side would have carried it through, or at least prevented this war by proxy stuff.

Neither Dreylin nor SL would've just rolled over, and I have to say I like their cooperation recently.

[Sullla]

Why has everyone been trusting Krill in this game? Rule #1 is that you never trust Krill! And I mean that as a compliment, he is too good at diplo mind games.

I definitely don't approve of this big backstab planned, but at the same time, I also kind of think that darrell deserves it for trying to play both sides of the alliance structure at once. Nobody likes an Imperio!

[sunrise089]

Why has everyone been trusting Krill in this game? Rule #1 is that you never trust Krill! And I mean that as a compliment, he is too good at diplo mind games.

I definitely don't approve of this big backstab planned, but at the same time, I also kind of think that darrell deserves it for trying to play both sides of the alliance structure at once. Nobody likes an Imperio!

I thought about IM'ing Krill about this today since I was talking to him via chat. The remark I wanted to say but didn't was that I think his constant diplo backstabs and treachery are good strategies I wish I had the personality to employ (note to potential allies: I don't have such a personality, so make deals with me!). I think by playing the big bad guy all of the time Krill gets 1) weak teams to ally with him because they are afraid of him, 2) other aggressive/mean teams to ally with him because jackals would rather hunt zebra than other jackals, and 3) strong teams (other zebras) to ally with him so he can take out their strong but peaceful rivals. All that's left in the other coalition are the weakest teams (the targets) and the strong teams that don't want to work with someone so underhanded. I think that coalition, sadly, is worse, at least as evidenced by RBP1, RBP3, and PBEM2.

Sooooo made a good point during the demogame that once the game is down to two real players you shouldn't really deal with the other guys if they're skillful, since any deal is going to benefit one party more than the other, and you're to a zero-sum game. If the other guys are skillful than the party benefiting from the deal is probably them (Poker analogy: if you can't tell the sucker in the first ten minutes at the table, the sucker is you, right?). Krill's problem is that he operates in this mode from turn 1 - no move is ever altruistic, and any advantage gained from working with him lasts just as long as you're useful to him. And yet he still has plenty of takers, including my own RBP3 team until he began work on betraying us. I think part of his effectiveness comes from not defending being a bastard, but rather always saying how much the other guy deserves what's coming to them. That's a great strategy when (EDIT: OMG I said "you're" here) your actions are indefensible - hope everyone forgets how horrid they are and agrees that the other side is bad too. Over time memories become hazy and you're left with "well Krill was bad but so was the other guy, so they were probably about the same."

[zakalwe]

Some good points, Sunrise. Also, I think one reason Krill isn't bashed so much by lurkers is that he has something of a "good villain" image. Lurkers are looking for entertainment and drama, and for that, a villain is a critical ingredient.

However, I'd like to add that it seemed to me like Krill was truly working with Darrell in good faith in this game - he was simply planning to win by domination before Darrell could win otherwise. Darrell was the one who got a bit too proactive in undermining the other's position. He should have been much more subtle, and adjusted his timing, as mentioned. Obviously Krill's planned reaction is extremely harsh, but it just serves to reinforce his ruthless "don't mess with me" image.

[scooter]

Really good post from sunrise, but I think Krill sort of gets unfairly painted as a "untrustworthy backstabber", but from watching him in numerous games now, I don't see that as true at all... People around here seem to get hung up on the whole "NAP" thing, but Krill never showed one sign of selling out Darrell, rather Darrell did the selling out. Krill just has the guts to make him pay for it. You know where you stand with Krill - you work together with him honestly, and you're fine. Try to screw him over just a little bit, and he'll do whatever he thinks is necessary. I don't think that makes him a bad guy, I just think it makes him gutsy, if not ruthless.

[T-hawk]

You know where you stand with Krill - you work together with him honestly, and you're fine.

I agree with this... but working with Krill isn't a ticket to winning. Krill will beat you, both because he's good at Civ gameplay itself, and because he will be more skilled and gutsy in diplomatic dealings with other rivals. Working with Krill is a great way to finish second or third. If you want to win, you'll need to work against Krill from the get-go, or else backstab Krill yourself, which in itself must be lethal and perfectly concealed.

[MWIN]

And yet he still has plenty of takers, including my own RBP3 team until he began work on betraying us. ."

I follow these games closely, I am not aware of Krill breaking any deals with you in RBP3. France is another case, but they backstabbed as a team.

Over time memories become hazy and you're left with "well Krill was bad but so was the other guy, so they were probably about the same."

My perception is this case is that Darrel is the bad guy and Krill is planning to back-stab a backstabber. Common, Darrell broke deals, blackmailed people to re-negotiate deals when he has advantage and settled that island when agreed to give to Krill.

[Tatan]

I remain miffed at Dreylin for contemplating an alliance with Krill against me after I had just provided him Steel, and thus the means to defend himself.

Oh, I think it's gone a little bit past the contemplation stage, Darrell.

Glad this game is back.