American Politics Discussion Thread

[GeneralKilCavalry]

I was a McCain supporter in 2000, but he lost me in 2008 with Palin.  Lately I’ve been voting Democrat more and more, because the Republican party has completely lost their way.  I’m pissed as hell that I no longer have a viable choice.  I want that back.  My worst nightmare is the Democratic party overreacts and becomes what you see from some posters in this forum.  I’d honestly prefer Trump.

Basically Mjmd, I’m as depressed about the current state of affairs as you seem to be and I have lost hope that it will turn around .  I think I need to take a break from this forum for a while.  I really appreciate the conversation with most of you and I’ve certainly learned a lot through the dialogue.

Darrell

You're just trying to find a way to justify your support for X conservative policy that benefits you. Why bother with this civility charade? What are you seeing from posters on this forum? Calling out T-hawk on his blatant regurgitation of fox news vomit? His undying support for glorious leader Kim-Jong Trump? 

What the fuck are "we"  "overreacting" to?

Concentration camps on the border?
150k excess deaths due to negligence?

That's not minor, that deserves anger. And if you're not angry about that, you'd be voting republican anyways.

[GeneralKilCavalry]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballot_Sec...Task_Force

This is the definitive statement on voter fraud. The republicans had a leash on them for 40 years because they violated basic democratic norms (guess when it expired). Well this + their dismantling of key sections of the voting rights act.

Unfortunately, since the collective memory of the public expires about every decade, they somehow fail to recollect that 90% of instances of voter fraud are perpetrated by republicans. The other 10% are when democrats need to prevent primary challenges from the left.

I don't see any point in continuing to discuss this... too much concern trolling and blatantly anti-democratic sentiment.

[Amicalola]

I was a McCain supporter in 2000, but he lost me in 2008 with Palin.  Lately I’ve been voting Democrat more and more, because the Republican party has completely lost their way.  I’m pissed as hell that I no longer have a viable choice.  I want that back.  My worst nightmare is the Democratic party overreacts and becomes what you see from some posters in this forum.  I’d honestly prefer Trump.

Basically Mjmd, I’m as depressed about the current state of affairs as you seem to be and I have lost hope that it will turn around .  I think I need to take a break from this forum for a while.  I really appreciate the conversation with most of you and I’ve certainly learned a lot through the dialogue.

Darrell

First of all, if I lived in the US I'd be depressed right now as well. I really hope it works out for you all. 

I am curious though, what do you see as unviable about the democratic party in its current state? Or Biden, I guess? I don't want to feel like I'm setting a bad trap (I think I am guilty of that with T-Hawk sometimes, by mistake), so I probably won't reply if you answer, to avoid it.

Do you find them too far to the left? To the right? To me they same very milquetoast, which I would have thought a centrist would find appealing. 

Of course, if your break starts from that post then this won't get an answer. That would be a shame, I find your posts more thought-provoking than a lot here. I hope you find it fulfilling, if you do go that way.

[Mjmd]

Centrists, like you:

No, no, you have to respect them.

What next, you gonna tell me we should've talked the Nazis out of the holocaust? Or that there were some "fine people" at Charlottesville with tiki torches? Come on, there's no reason to validate the opinions of a fascist-lite.

You have to respect people. If you don't respect people you end up with hatred for people who don't think like you. You can say yes they are absolutely wrong and are blind and I would never vote for you in a million years. You should then point out the blindness. They may not listen mind, but self righteousness rarely gets through.  It is pretty easy on issues like the above and like immigration and herd immunity to say "absolutely people shouldn't be subjected to this by any humanitarian standard". T-Hawks views on the virus have been quite frankly chilling to read as well as other issues. I also find his blind belief in Republican election rhetoric with no proof to be disturbing. I do wish we had other republicans willing to speak up. I would love to hear from someone else. (this is in fact a request)

Issues I've agreed with T-Hawk on is fairly short, but mainly because we've been arguing larger issues. So far: over burdensome government regulations and the deficit come to mind that I have agreed with him on. I may not agree on his solutions or his logic for why he thinks those things, but just because I don't 100% agree with your views and agree with some of his am I monster? This is all I'm cautioning against. Republicans undying support for Trump combined with their handling of the virus and voter suppression / this whole post election mess means they have lost me as a voter for the foreseeable future. I am ashamed of Americans for even making this election close. Do I think 70 million Americans are monsters? Nope, just stupid, deaf, and blind.

[Mjmd]

I was a McCain supporter in 2000, but he lost me in 2008 with Palin.  Lately I’ve been voting Democrat more and more, because the Republican party has completely lost their way.  I’m pissed as hell that I no longer have a viable choice.  I want that back.  My worst nightmare is the Democratic party overreacts and becomes what you see from some posters in this forum.  I’d honestly prefer Trump.

Basically Mjmd, I’m as depressed about the current state of affairs as you seem to be and I have lost hope that it will turn around .  I think I need to take a break from this forum for a while.  I really appreciate the conversation with most of you and I’ve certainly learned a lot through the dialogue.

Darrell

Agree with the bolded. I'm afraid the Democrats will become just as bad. However, I'm pretty sure America is lost if the best choice is Trump.

[T-hawk]

Maybe you could argue that this is a problem in the left, but it's definitely a huge problem in the American right.

Yeah. You'll notice that I don't defend the right's voter base at all. They're just as dumb and misleadable into believing all sorts of their own fake news as the left.

(by the way T-hawk, you're losing my respect here, go out and say what you mean no need to hind behind pretenses. Just tell everyone what you wish to happen, which is for your orange-faced tyrant in senior citizen diapers to win through an institution that is utterly contrary to any modern principles of democracy.)

Since you guys can't even read my actual arguments and are making up positions I don't hold, here it is again. I want my orange-faced tyrant to win by democratic means, by sufficient evidence to show that the reported state totals were sufficiently fraudulent or tampered with, such that the real and legal votes actually were in Trump's favor. I don't believe this is likely - merely not impossible -, and I do not want or expect Trump to retain office if it doesn't happen. I'm aware of the qualifier "sufficient" in there doing the heavy lifting and what we'll never agree on, but that's my position.

[GeneralKilCavalry]

Look at the Republicans falling in line as Trump refuses to concede and tries to overthrow democracy.

They are trying to prevent an overthrow of democracy through illegally and fraudulently cast and counted votes.

(Well, I know they're just trying to win, they're not acting on any principle, but that is the principle that makes it possible.)

I remind everyone that no democracy in either direction has actually happened yet.  The media reporting on the vote so far means nothing.  What's real is the electors designated by each state and how they record their votes in the electoral college.  The Republicans are using the courts to induce states to follow their own laws, like PA trying to count late ballots after the legally specified deadline.  I'm actually not sure how I feel about that - if a state violates its own laws, is that an internal issue of only the state's concern or should the federal government have authority to enforce that?

[Boro]

The possible cases I'm bringing up are what's on thedonald.win, that's no secret.  Of course I know the credibility is going to be low or none.  I don't even believe it's likely that Trump wins, his odds are maybe about 10% by now.  I'm just keeping the possibility open.  Yes he needs multiple states to swing against what appear to be the current results - and Dominion is both the most questionable aspect at the moment and the way that would be correlated across multiple states.  Cyneheard keeps talking about the court cases -- we'll see if any happen, and if not, then it goes to Biden.

So 10% is the coup chance, then ?

Perused thedonald.win a bit and I didn’t see much in the way of proof.  It’s traditional to follow up accusations with evidence, and twelve days on we still haven’t seen anything compelling.

Darrell

If its anything like the russian story it'll go on for the next four years...

 Just like 2016 Russia interference. This was verified to have happened; however, it almost certainly didn't change the result. Both issues need to be looked into and fixed if needed. 

yep, it definitely will keep going.

Without thoughtful considerate people we would just be left with 2 pigs wrestling in the mud. The pigs might like it, but nothing is actually going forward.

That unintentially describes how I see the US domestic political two party system so well, it goes to my favorites.

I didn't want one side to have all the power which is always dangerous)

To continue the analogy, the same owner feeds both pigs. And the pigs essentially wrestle for that owner's headpats. Eisenhower's warnings anyone? Or did someone look up the current war and propaganda ministry leaders' (defense and state depts) credentials and the proposed transition team?

(by the way T-hawk, you're losing my respect here, go out and say what you mean no need to hind behind pretenses. Just tell everyone what you wish to happen, which is for your orange-faced tyrant in senior citizen diapers to win through an institution that is utterly contrary to any modern principles of democracy.).

Right now I disagree with T-hawk primarily on something else, but that is actually what I want to see... for wholly different reasons. And I couldnt believe it myself that I was rooting for trump myself either.

A proven vote fraud would dismantle the prestige of american democracy and severely hamper it's ability to promote (ostensibly) the same kind of (apparently) inherently corrupt system. Thats very good fo me since the liberal sellouts in my country would on top of losing powerful foreign support for now (btw, if anyone was meddling that directly in the usa's internal affairs there would be much more scandal than even the russiagate or however I'm supposed to call it) would even later bereft the same influence.

Problem with them gaining power and forming the next government, aside from being quislings of the usa, would be continuing things like privatizing healthcare, introducing fees to visit doctors that primarily hurt the impoverished, reselling the painstakingly nationalized utilities such as electricity, gas, and water to foreign companies (national security risk anyone?), and bailing out the banks no strings attached instead of making them pay next time they cause a crisis.

That on top of the customary political purges of leadership positions in offices and rewarding them to loyal cadres, as well as a string of austerity, scaling down of state-paid jobs, both of which could affect mine since I'm not only in a pity-job provided for the disabled (due to my heart condition) and paid for by the state, but work directly for decision-makers.

Furthermore a retaliation against "right-wing media" would risk my two parents' job who are proofreaders, (father has been proofreading the paper since it was still liberal befofe the change in ownership). Thats 3 out of 4 incomes in the family, and I really dont want to go back to the days where there was only one. 

Similarly, an electoral college result could very well cause the usa to be preoccupied mainly with itself instead of with foreign countries, like mine.

Best would be not having a horse, or in this case a muddy pig in the mudwrestling race. Especially since I'd have preferred trump as an entertainer or show host instead of a politician.

[Jowy]

Do you realize the circularity of this argument?  You're defining "what the people voted for" by the results of the fraud.  The point is if the current apparent result wasn't the will of the people.

"Fraud" that only exists in your imagination as an excuse to overthrow democracy.

I would argue the right is very much in the we refuse to listen to logic camp as well. I've outlined my proposed compromise to the republicans unproven fraud allegations, but that ain't happening and honestly haven't even heard anyone nationally suggest such a radical thing as an independent investigator. Again it is human nature to assume you are right / that your side is right.

We are going to enter a sphere where neither side believes anything the other says. Both sides will go further left / right. Anyone like me who has traditionally been disgusted by both and hates voting for either is going to be left choosing a side. Or just stop participating, which is obviously bad because losing reasonable people in the middle just means the extremes gain further power.

My only solution is to bar anyone from voting who can't name 5 things the other party "says" they believe that they agree with. Right now I'm disgusted with Republicans and have no clue what they believe in anymore. I probably should be bared from voting. (In the past I voted for McCain for reference and have voted for some Republicans lower in the ballot. In the past I've mainly voted democrat on lower races because they were more moderate / I didn't want one side to have all the power which is always dangerous)

When I first started following US politics I noticed how easily the two sides are divided to the good guys and the bad guys, but I did not want to think like that because I thought it was a childish way to look at the world. But the more I've learned, the more I've come to conclusion that the centrist "both sides bad" is the actual childish thinking. It's so absolutely abhorrent what the Republicans stand for and it blows my mind how they are still in power (until Jan 2021) in a modern civilized first world country. When you have one side that literally does not believe in facts or science and doesn't care about people as human beings, at least for me from a country that has it better, it is blindingly obvious that one side is nowhere near as bad as the other.

[Amicalola]

When you have one side that literally does not believe in facts or science and doesn't care about people as human beings, at least for me from a country that has it better, it is blindingly obvious that one side is nowhere near as bad as the other.

I think this really is part of the problem. When you have grown up or lived in another developed country with a more progressive government, you see firsthand what can actually be done with things like taxpayer money if it is used remotely efficiently. Universal healthcare at a far lower cost per consumer compared to the American Insurance system is the example that comes to mind. But if you have grown up in America, you probably don't realise how possible it all is because you've just known something different your entire life. 

Maybe that's generalising, I don't know. I am very aware it doesn't apply to all Americans. It's just something I experienced a lot when I was in the country last year, and some of the comments here remind me of it.