American Politics Discussion Thread

[Jowy]

I’m not even sure UBI is a good idea.  I’m not sure its a bad idea either, but the Finnish experiment with it was pretty mixed.  And this is in a country where having the state take care of you doesn’t come with a stigma attached (Jowy correct me if I’m wrong).

Everyone politically supports having a large social safety net, the system itself is very well respected, but many do look down on those who only get by on benefits and don't work or study for a long time. Certain groups don't like that immigrants receive money.

The article pretty much covers everything. Personally I think people being healthier and happier is a good outcome. For basic living income (there's no US term for it apparently), which is the benefit you get if you don't qualify for anything else and don't have income or savings, you have to send in a new application every month and hope that it passes without problem. It can really mess you up mentally that you're relying on someone's whims to survive. The other common issue is that accepting work can be financially bad for you due to bureaucracy. That is one of the things that UBI was supposed to solve, but according to the results it did not improve employment.

Over half the population supports UBI, and two political parties, the Greens (11% of votes) and the Leftist Alliance (8% of votes), are pushing for its implementation.

[darrelljs]

There were negligible labor market improvements, which is what was being tested. I wasn’t trying to assess the bureaucratic impacts, but I would have liked to assess the well being impacts which are most important but unfortunately not tested. To me that’s mixed.

Darrell

[darrelljs]

Personally I think people being healthier and happier is a good outcome. For basic living income (there's no US term for it apparently), which is the benefit you get if you don't qualify for anything else and don't have income or savings, you have to send in a new application every month and hope that it passes without problem. It can really mess you up mentally that you're relying on someone's whims to survive.

The weird thing was so many people in the study still sent in the application every month. Anyway the bolded part is what’s most important, but it didn’t seem to be covered by the study, or at least any improvements couldn’t be de-correlated from external factors. It seemed they just wanted to see if it moved more people into the workforce and off government support.

Darrell

[Bobchillingworth]

I had been interpreting the primary goal of a UBI as fueling domestic economic growth via significantly increasing the capacity of most consumers to purchase more goods and services through artificially-supplied expendable income. Poverty reduction and enabling higher levels of educational attainment would be obviously important follow-on effects (though I wonder if tuition would rise as rent potentially could).


If the goal is simply to get people working, then I'd prefer some sort of government jobs guarantee, for which I can see multiple benefits:

* Many Federal agencies are currently both badly understaffed and have aging workforces; greatly expanding the talent pool will go a long way to addressing shortfalls and creating a government whose staffing reflects current demographics and is upscaled for the population.

* Skills acquisition for those who need them, and work experience for all.

* There's no shortage of long-term infrastructure projects people could be assigned to; no need to resort to widespread "make-work" shenanigans.

* Increased civic engagement and social cohesion through shared participation in the American national project.


We actually already have something vaguely similar to this; anyone who successfully completes a year with the AmeriCorps VISTA program is in turn eligible for a year of preferred consideration when applying for Federal jobs (which often means you're a lock as long as you're reasonably qualified, don't completely bomb the interview, and aren't competing with a large slate of other former AmeriCorps members), and IIRC anyone who completes one (maybe two?) years with FEMACorps gets a permanent job with FEMA. There's significant restrictions on who is eligible to participate in the AmeriCorps or FEMACorps though, and they're chronically underfunded. You could argue that the military counts as well, though a lot of people who would benefit from a Federal job lack the physical qualifications to serve, are former felons, and/or don't have at least a high school diploma- plus I don't think it's particularly healthy for the country to get around underemployment by enlisting as many people as possible in the armed forces; that's cryptofascist Starship Troopers stuff.

[Jowy]

I had been interpreting the primary goal of a UBI as fueling domestic economic growth via significantly increasing the capacity of most consumers to purchase more goods and services through artificially-supplied expendable income.  Poverty reduction and enabling higher levels of educational attainment would be obviously important follow-on effects (though I wonder if tuition would rise as rent potentially could). 

I can answer this: Housing benefits here have increased rent. However it does vary on locational basis. Rents raise because of benefits, then benefits raise to cover higher rent, then the rents raise again, and so forth. Landlords are a big unintended beneficiary, though the benefits are still massively helpful and needed for those who they are intended to. We have no tuition so can't comment on that.

[Mjmd]

So your saying Republicans should be on board to help out one of their favorite constituencies in property owners?

I'm very much on the side of job programs vs UBI.

[Mjmd]

It looks like some Republicans at least are realizing that Trump is probably not useful (enough) going forward. I don't think this is anything other than a political calculation. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/19/trump-pr...-says.html

[Jowy]

It looks like some Republicans at least are realizing that Trump is probably not useful (enough) going forward. I don't think this is anything other than a political calculation. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/19/trump-pr...-says.html

Mitch McConnell has been anti-Trump at least since Trump pushed for the 2k stim that Republicans were blocking

[Jowy]

Here we are on the final day of Trump's presidency. No nukes have flown yet, no civil war has started, and Trump hasn't even fled the country. Very boring, but in this case boring is also very good. I expect the inauguration to go smoothly, the Trump rioters aren't organized enough to do anything about it. Maybe some violence elsewhere. Trump went out on his back, reading conceliatory speeches from the teleprompter. That peace might be shortlived though if he announces his presidential campaign for 2024 today.

[darrelljs]

I will never, ever forgive Trump for this latest atrocity.  Nothing, and I mean nothing that has come before or could possibly come after will ever compare to this:



Darrell