[59] Miguelito and Rusten move stacks to berimbau rythms

[Lewwyn]

There are only 25 players and 34 civs. Even now there are at least 2 civs(ETA: it's higher) that have not made it into selection in both rounds

[Miguelito]

Oops right, the 27 limit was so we had 2 leaders for everybody.

[Rusten]

I think that's a definite keep. It's not a 'wow' pick, but it's a UU I rate and a game where observatories will play a part. Pretty happy with that roll.

I'm also more satisfied with the wheel the more I sim. Agree that 2 of hunting/agri/myst/fishing would be optimal, but we do need early pottery and it is more expensive than the other 1st row techs.
Not having BW means that we might want to build a road instead of chopping too, which could speed up the 2nd city 1-2 turns, and gives us the trade route.

Another thing I was playing around with in my head yesterday is skipping hunting+AH and farming the sheep. Instead going mining-bw-fishing-pottery. I think it has potential. Especially since we already see a wet farm resource for city #2. Very high on this idea and look forward to simming it.

Thumbs up from me, even with the discard thing in play. Dodging mysticism is nice.

[Rusten]

I've had a number of SP deity games where it was much better to farm the livestock in the beginning than tech AH because the starting techs are so expensive, and this game has a similar premise. AH is very expensive for just +1F and +1C compared to farming it, and hunting for just the ivory is not great either, seeing as we have a riverside mine. I think it could be the best way to deal with needing so many starting techs.

[Miguelito]

I've had a number of SP deity games where it was much better to farm the livestock in the beginning than tech AH because the starting techs are so expensive, and this game has a similar premise. AH is very expensive for just +1F and +1C compared to farming it, and hunting for just the ivory is not great either, seeing as we have a riverside mine. I think it could be the best way to deal with needing so many starting techs.

In the civforum PB88 (deity/huge map) the experienced players also went for mined/farmed livestock (mind they have guaranteed copper and precious metal in the BFC so it's a bit of a different situation).
Now I'm wondering if Imp would have worked better with that plan? I feel like France would have matched pretty well with Spi, with draft cycles for musketeers and the salons helping to get artists out in caste. Whatever.

Nearly two weeks to go for the game to start, so plenty of time for sims and tier lists.

keep France

[Rusten]

You're right that my proposed start would leverage Imp better, but it leverages Exp even more, because it's the only way to get granaries early. If we go hunting+AH I think we won't have pottery until at least T50. There are also things I like about France+Fin. With musketeers I'm not sure we want to cycle nationhood so Spi won't be missed. I think it will be our main civic when available. Being able to draft 2-move muskets is also a great way to compensate for lower base production (running cottages).

I prefer Pacal over Justinian still.

[Rusten]

Also worth noting; with a huge map we can draft 5 times per turn, as opposed to the usual 3 (normal size). That's a buff to France. Also a buff to spiritual to be fair, it makes us less inclined to stay in it permanently.

I'll probably run some sims skipping hunting+AH this evening and see where we can fit in granaries. I think we can build a huge advantage compared to our opposition by getting them early and skipping some techs. I'll use 2nd city 1sw of ivory as a baseline, but with the sheep down to 4F1C it's not essential to share it. We could put the city anywhere with wheat in 1st ring.

[Rusten]

For reference the size 3 hunting+AH settler growth and worker micro is pretty tight, so it will be hard to beat.

Improve wheat, improve sheep (1t into ivory first), improve ivory, 2x road to city #2, farm 2nd wheat same turn it's settled. Results in BW end of turn 37, and pottery about 10 turns after that again. Looks like something I'd be satisfied with and it's a good measuring stick for the mining+BW sims -- T47 or 48 pottery is better than I feared.. But I don't like leaving the fish idle for so long and not chopping, so there's definitely room for mining-bw to improve upon it. One of the roads is unnecessary too.

[Rusten]

I can't find a way to justifiably beat hunting->AH first techs, and to be fair it works out pretty well. I have no qualms about it.

[Rusten]

Some elaboration on the hunting-AH line 

2nd city settled T31 --This will also be the case if we find a different spot further away -- we have spare movement on the settler.




Production changes to a worker that's out T36:




Sadly BW is one turn too slow for both this worker and the one that farms 2nd wheat, but we can choose to either
a) double up on the riverside plains hill mine, and then chop after
b) put a turn into 2 separate useful roads and then move to forest to chop after

Worth noting that if the workers immediately chop we will have enough hammers to complete the next settler the same turn the chops are completed.




But there are other variables that have come into play at this point, such as whether we have horses, how good the next city spot is, do we need another warrior, etc. 
I wouldn't stress deciding between those points just yet. Just going Hunting --> AH and getting the size 3 settler seems a good baseline to me. Going 2 workers before settler is not good if we don't have BW.