Epic One - Speaker's Report

[kryszcztov]

No, I rather welcomed the barb cities. Saves the trouble of making a settler.

Doing so delays the control of those areas, possibly messes up your dotmap, and you get to build many units instead of 1 or 2 settlers... I prefer to build my own cities by far, and I'm now willing to go the BarbWatch route in my games. So much trouble can be avoided that way...

[Speaker]

Apologies for taking so long to respond to you Kryszcztov. I was away on vacation, and then had so much to catch up on that I forgot to look here.

Wanted to read the champion's report (am I right ?). Very, very impressive !

Thanks for the compliment.

But now I'm left in wonder-land : I made it a promise, after my game, to never aggressively settle again, and you did exactly that in your game !!

Why would you make such a promise? Sometimes an aggressive settlement is what you need to be successful.

So I don't know what to think of that, maybe settling that further away from your capital didn't worsen the diplomatic relationship that much, while giving you much better lands...

I didn't notice any diplomatic hit...other than the three war declarations. But I was sure to keep those cities well protected.

And how ironic that you managed to top everyone while having a Mongolian city right at the Parisian iron source for a long time...

Well, the Mongolian city never was able to take the iron away from Paris. In any event, I had another Iron source between Paris and Lyons in the desert.

You obviously didn't share the same fears as me (seeing other civs settle in your backyard).

Well, I didn't want Mongolia to settle down there, but there were other, higher-priority spots that I wanted to settle first. So I let Mongolia deal with the jungle for me.

Another impressive thing is the way you use the tools in Civ4. I'm only discovering the game, but you already have good notions of how to maximize everything. One example is the Oracle, used to get a monopoly on Alphabet. Let's call such things "warp zones" (from Super Mario Bros). In Civ3 there are just a few of them (like the Republic slingshot and the ToE slingshot). But it looks like the complex system in Civ4 have dozens of that.

I like the term. My Alphabet warp zone worked very well for me, but Sullla's Metal Casting warp zone worked equally well for him. That's the best part of Civ4 in my opinion. There are so many different possible paths and strategies.

And while I was manually researching Writing and Alphabet while leaving my worker with nothing to do (I beelined to Alphabet right away), you got many useful techs, built a wonder I didn't know gives you a free tech, and bang ! Alphabet for free. So many new things to learn in order to play an excellent game, since it's not just about going at max food, then max shields, then max gold a la Civ3.

The Oracle can be a powerful tool. At this point, I'd consider it to be my favorite early wonder.

Thanks for your report, it gives me the will to discover and try all that I still don't know.

I'm happy to oblige. Perhaps you'll join me in an SG sometime in the near future?

And just for fun, I did a comparison between both our games. I manually discovered Alphabet in 800BC, while you got it for free in 740BC, so that's pretty much the same !!

That is definitely a fast Alphabet you managed, especially on Epic speed!

The net result is that you built/researched many other things before that, while I didn't. What a simple, yet important difference. Warp zones is what you want to go after...

That is why beelining is not always the proper path in Civ4. I think the best benefit of my early Alphabet warp was that I was able to trade outdated techs (Priesthood, Agriculture, Meditation, Polytheism) to catch up on the techs I had missed (Pottery, Polytheism, Fishing, Bronze Working). So I didn't have to break my writing monopoly, much less my Alphabet monopoly.

And you had 3 good cities, while I had 2 cities, 1 being crappy...

Pretty much everyone who chose to expand south to cut off the Mongolians got stuck with crappy cities, which hampered early growth, science, and production.

Boooh, I'm far behind you.

If it makes you feel any better, my SG turns last night were the first time I've played in 2 weeks. Perhaps you've caught up to me by now?

[Speaker]

DI'm now willing to go the BarbWatch route in my games. So much trouble can be avoided that way...

BarbWatch ™ worked very well for me because I didn't lost (m)any units to the barbs while I was exploring. So I was able to return all my scouts and warriors home, and use them. It becomes less cost-effective if you have to build more units for that job. Then again, you can send out settlers unescorted, and use the barbwatcher in that area for MP once founded. So maybe it's really just a shift in build order.

[kryszcztov]

Why would you make such a promise? Sometimes an aggressive settlement is what you need to be successful.

Because I thought that I rushed towards my foes too quickly by aggressively settling towards them. And since my 2 cities weren't that good (jungle...), I was left with my wonder-building capital to protect my civ. But it's true that in my game, Monty attacked me before Genghis. Maybe I should forget about "aggressive settlement" and think of "good settlement".

I didn't notice any diplomatic hit...other than the three war declarations. But I was sure to keep those cities well protected.

Yes, but you were attacked later than me. Those AIs must have thought that you were doing well with your better cities, and refrained from attacking sooner.

Well, the Mongolian city never was able to take the iron away from Paris. In any event, I had another Iron source between Paris and Lyons in the desert.

Yeah, me too, after capturing a Mongolian city in the north-east. I was referring to the annoyance generated by Genghis settling so close to your core. I always think the civ core as a holy place...

Well, I didn't want Mongolia to settle down there, but there were other, higher-priority spots that I wanted to settle first. So I let Mongolia deal with the jungle for me.

Smart.

I like the term. My Alphabet warp zone worked very well for me, but Sullla's Metal Casting warp zone worked equally well for him. That's the best part of Civ4 in my opinion. There are so many different possible paths and strategies.

Thanks, I'll use this term again if it makes enough sense. "Slingshot" doesn't embrace thhis concept in Civ4 enough for me. But if you don't know how to use them from time to time at least in one game, you can't win. I think finding a good balance in Civ4 is the key to victory. But then we're encouraged to capitalize on our natural advantage... In fact, the deal is to do that in order to go through warp zones, which will eventually pay off back in the areas where we're behind.

The Oracle can be a powerful tool. At this point, I'd consider it to be my favorite early wonder.

Gnak-gnak-gnak. What has marble is good, I'm calling them the "Greek wonders" now (add the Parthenon and the Great Library). But then, I'm a big fan of Ancient Greece.

I'm happy to oblige. Perhaps you'll join me in an SG sometime in the near future?

Thanks, but I'm not very interested in playing SGs now. Maybe I don't personnaly like the concept anymore ? But I'll be happy to compare our games more in the future. So I'm trying to catch up now.

That is definitely a fast Alphabet you managed, especially on Epic speed!

Not really. That's because I beelined. My point was that we got it at the same time in the game (you only 3 turns after me), while you got all those other techs in the meantime... while I got almost nothing. I was emphasizing the way you got into a warp zone to get the same thing as me while getting other things I didn't get in the meantime. All in all : you good, me bad.

That is why beelining is not always the proper path in Civ4. I think the best benefit of my early Alphabet warp was that I was able to trade outdated techs (Priesthood, Agriculture, Meditation, Polytheism) to catch up on the techs I had missed (Pottery, Polytheism, Fishing, Bronze Working). So I didn't have to break my writing monopoly, much less my Alphabet monopoly.

That was... a very nice consequence of your warp strat. I of course had to give up a bit on Writing and then Alphabet. You didn't double me, you trippled me there !!

Pretty much everyone who chose to expand south to cut off the Mongolians got stuck with crappy cities, which hampered early growth, science, and production.

Yeah. Blockading other civs has always been a dream for many people... On my first game (not RB) I immediately tried that with my first settler... and failed to grab the site. Here I got hopeless cities, just good to be destroyed. I think this strat can be a nice one-shot thing in some games, but basing one's plans on that is stupid for me now.

If it makes you feel any better, my SG turns last night were the first time I've played in 2 weeks. Perhaps you've caught up to me by now?

Playing those adventures... I hope I'm doing better there. I'm still "new" to the game.

[Speaker]

Yeah, me too, after capturing a Mongolian city in the north-east. I was referring to the annoyance generated by Genghis settling so close to your core. I always think the civ core as a holy place...

That city was a bit of an annoyance from an aesthetic standpoint, but had no effect on the game otherwise. It was a jungle wasteland when founded, and they never bothered to dig it out. Only after I captured it, did it become a powerhouse economic city.

Gnak-gnak-gnak. What has marble is good, I'm calling them the "Greek wonders" now (add the Parthenon and the Great Library). But then, I'm a big fan of Ancient Greece.

I rarely build the Parthenon. But then again, I don't make major use of specialists/great people either. I think I may run an SG that focuses on the generation of Great People, to learn more about that aspect of the game.

Thanks, but I'm not very interested in playing SGs now. Maybe I don't personnaly like the concept anymore ? But I'll be happy to compare our games more in the future. So I'm trying to catch up now.

I totally understand. My interest in SGs has waned significantly since the Civ3 heyday. There are many reasons for that, which I won't go into here. But at this point, I plan to only participate in 1 at a time, where in the past I had played 2-3. And this is not a time issue for me.

All in all : you good, me bad.

Don't be so hard on yourself. How about: "you good, me slightly better."

That was... a very nice consequence of your warp strat. I of course had to give up a bit on Writing and then Alphabet. You didn't double me, you trippled me there !!

I wish someone else had employed a similar strategy to me, so I could compare whether I just got lucky that the n-fer was available using "outdated" techs, or whether my strategy was so very sound.

Yeah. Blockading other civs has always been a dream for many people... On my first game (not RB) I immediately tried that with my first settler... and failed to grab the site. Here I got hopeless cities, just good to be destroyed. I think this strat can be a nice one-shot thing in some games, but basing one's plans on that is stupid for me now.

I agree with you here. The blockade is often a great strategy. But in this game, it just wasn't. Plain and simple. Again, I'm shocked that in 50 games, I was the only person to really push east out of the jungle. It seemed like such a no brainer to me. Cookie cutter strategies?

Playing those adventures... I hope I'm doing better there. I'm still "new" to the game.

Ashamedly, I may not be taking part in the latest adventures. I'm not playing Adv1 or Adv2 for sure. Neither game interested me. I may take part in Adv3, as the starting position looks quite appealing, but the scoring system is not really my cup of tea. I'd prefer to "just play" rather than figure out the best way to maximize my "score." Constantly worrying about maximizing my score, and keeping meticulous notes of how I am scoring, and keeping thorough notes to write a great report may make the game a little too disjointed for me. But I may play it regardless. The starting position looks that fun.