OSG29 ... and if you borrow, borrow BIG

[ignatius]

To be successful, keep looking tanned, live in an elegant building (even if you're in the cellar), be seen in smart restaurants (even if you only nurse one drink) and if you borrow, borrow big.
--- Aristoteles Onassis

I stumbled over OSG29 on Sunday i.e. one day before the deadline and wanted to try for a short and easy game (ha ha), so I decided go the Onassis-route and pump 200.000 bc into Hoard albeit with the intention of at least paying it back - if possible with interest - before the 2500 deadline. Still, the game turned out to be surprisingly hard (for low values of "hard" - survival was never in question, but it was far from the march-through I expected it to be): not only b/c our prop. and planetology tree was seriously crippled but also because the lack of reserve spending turned out to be a serious handicap as it took ages to mount proper defenses on newly founded planets. Also, the huge Nebuala coreward from our homeworld was not helpful.

I played with embryonic_18 and also used threats routinely to turn back incoming fleets from races I was not at war with. While the threats were - thanks to the reserve dump into Hoard - not completely empty (I always had a somewhat competitive fleet), some might consider this exploitive. Also, I did not really play for score, so I have no problem if this ends up in the shadow report.

2326 have 5 planets: Hoard, Rigel, Reticuli, Anraq and Mu Delphi. Any further expansion will require either Barren or Range5, none of which are available. In fact the closest available techs will turn out to be Toxic and Range8. So I build LR-larges to defend exposed planets as I won't be able to colonize then soon. Also, I dial up constr. to enable LR-colships which turned out to be a good move after I found that my only prop. option after nukes was sublights.
2357 meks declare; I'm not too worried as they have lousy range, no navy to speak of and can't land on the nearby planets. By this time I got Toxic and have settled the second ring form Denubius to Iranha; 11 planets in total.
2382 cats declare more or less out of the blue and catch me somewhat on the left foot, as they have toxic and my final expansion round is just underway. birds refuse to join and want range8 or contr.rad. for fusion bombs - go figure!
2383 the ants just got a vision - this could get ugly ..
2389 cats capture nordia - nothing to be done about it
2392 cats capture kulthos and nab robo4 and range8!!!- I wasn't aware that I even had factories left ...!!!
23xx after barely repelling 3 attacks I finally lost protheus to the ants

2400 reserve is 9.800.839, deal birds for bc2 and fusion bombs againt my robo3 and shields3, also buy peace for 900 from the ants - time to go on the offensive
2433 the meklars are no more. took misha, meklon and darrian anticlockwise with their huge SOD too slow to follow. Attack fleet was 8 large bombers with shields5 and 20 fusion bombs (which were invulnerable to their nuke bases) covered by larges with NPGs which happend to be my only available gun.
2435 steal it4 from the ants - just in time for adv. soil and with armored ex. about to pop (so I can skip a bracket)
2446 fieras taken using small impulse fusion bombers with IS backed up by a huge ARS craft with ISP.
2447 kulthos retaken destroying a nasty huge prototype in a close battle losing most of my bombers
2449 could have taken the vote here (have 30/57 plus birds and darlocks vote for me) but I have still a debt to pay - and some open bills ...
2459 cats and darloks gone
2466 begin large scale reserve spending
2476 proteus recaptured
2479 ants terminated
2485 break even (cache-wise, not score-wise), reserve is 10.014.426 bc
2486 everything except artefact worlds on reserve
2487 the birds - my allies and friends whom I never did any harm (although they would have been easy prey) and even left all those poor and ultra poor ant-worlds to colonize - declare, oh well ...
2500 reserve is 10.315.476 bc so we got positive ROI (although barely so with only 115k profit for 200k taken, that's a measle 0.23% p.a.); birds conquered except for poor Vulcan
2502 Vulcan destroyed, extermination victory

score: 20.116.315 bc

Even though I went Onassis mainly for convenience and didn't really play for score (except to pay back my debt, as Ref claimed it to be impossible ;-) ), I would not be surprised if the eventual winner also has used reserve spending on the homeworld. If your development is sped up by more than 10 to 20 years, it's a profitable investment, even though you have to pay back 4-fold to break even score-wise.

ignatius

[RefSteel]

Wow - thanks for the report! It sounds like a really great game!

I played with embryonic_18 and also used threats routinely to turn back incoming fleets from races I was not at war with. While the threats were - thanks to the reserve dump into Hoard - not completely empty (I always had a somewhat competitive fleet), some might consider this exploitive. Also, I did not really play for score, so I have no problem if this ends up in the shadow report.

I guess it does have to be a shadow since you were playing with the embryonic patch - with different AI behavior and some interface improvements (and some bugs corrected, with others introduced) it's clearly not quite the same game. That said, I enjoyed reading your report and seeing the Embryonic patch in action again. That patch (I think Embryonic was the one) was actually the inspiration for this game, as I was playing with a "never spend reserves" variant in all my test games with that patch once I discovered a bug that meant any reserve spending at all under the patch doubled the planet's production indefinitely.

(except to pay back my debt, as Ref claimed it to be impossible ;-) )

Terrific job of proving me wrong! This wouldn't be Realms Beyond if someone from the community didn't prove a sponsor's "impossible" claim wrong from time to time - well done!

[ignatius]

I guess it does have to be a shadow since you were playing with the embryonic patch - with different AI behavior and some interface improvements (and some bugs corrected, with others introduced) it's clearly not quite the same game.

That's quite OK with me. Playing as a ranked game and optimizing for score would certainly have taken me twice as long (w/o necessarily also being twice the fun). ;-)

That patch (I think Embryonic was the one) was actually the inspiration for this game, as I was playing with a "never spend reserves" variant in all my test games with that patch once I discovered a bug that meant any reserve spending at all under the patch doubled the planet's production indefinitely.

Yes, but you are aware that this has been fixed in Embryonic_18. I just checked myself to make sure as such a bug would indeed be a showstopper and I couldn't believe that I wouldn't have noticed it during my games; and indeed after many "next turns" Hoard finally ran through its reserve fell back to normal production in 2548.

In fact I believe that it's about time to go for an Embryonic Imperium, for a start maybe just a vanilla impossible game with the patch and some optional Orion-related scoring theme (as the Guardian's missing ADC at impossible has been fixed). The working title "2301: A Space Odyssey" would suggest itself ...

As a race, Mrrshans would be nice for their attack bonus but might turn out quite hard on the diplo front. OTOH, Humans would better fit with the Odyssey-theme and stand a better chance to survive the first vote.

[RefSteel]

Yes, but you are aware that this has been fixed in Embryonic_18.

I wasn't sure, not remembering which version fixed which bugs, but I'm glad that's the case! In any case, of course it wasn't relevant to this Imperium, where any reserve spending would have the effect of "permanent" doubling regardless of what if any patch was being used; as I said, my playing that way with an older version of the patch once upon a time was what inspired the idea for this game.

In fact I believe that it's about time to go for an Embryonic Imperium

The first step is to get kyrub on board. If he posts a version that he considers tournament-ready, and the community is interested, I'd love to see such an Imperium. If he even has a version of which he'd like to see a bunch of test games and there's enough support for it to warrant a try, that would work too.

optimizing for score would certainly have taken me twice as long (w/o necessarily also being twice the fun)

I just wanted to quote this so I can agree. You say spending twice as long on a game and getting the best possible score and/or goodies doesn't mean the game was twice as fun? That's practically the keystone of my philosophy on computer games.

[ignatius]

The first step is to get kyrub on board. If he posts a version that he considers tournament-ready, and the community is interested, I'd love to see such an Imperium. If he even has a version of which he'd like to see a bunch of test games and there's enough support for it to warrant a try, that would work too.

Of course, this would be the best way to go about it. But, extrapolating from this post over at Catnips's Master of Magic forum, this might not happen anytime soon. OTOH, his quitting only concerned the insecticide patch for MoM which is basically finished and he even did some final fixes afterwards, so there is still hope...

Still, Embryonic_18 already fixes almost all of the known engine and interface bugs. The main reason, kyrub doesn't consider it Imperium-ready is that after fixing the AI-expansion bug and the AI-foreign relations bug, the AI might be too strong and it might be too hard to survive the first votes. Even though I have played a couple of games already, I'm still undecided on the issue - maybe I was just lucky, maybe it was just modesty on kyrub's part.

Anyway - even if the games should turn out to be harder on the diplo-front, one might consider this a variant in its own right and having an Imperium with a couple of detailed reports on the same game might help in that department (any maybe even motivate kyrub to do some fixes if those should turn out to be necessary).

ignatius

[kyrub]

Hi guys,
it is really strange to read things about myself in third person.

- I have no intention to quit MoO project completely as yet. (For me, MoO >> MoM.) Otherwise, I'd give away the documentation the same way I did with MoM.
- For me, embryonic version is very short of a finished business, I'd like to see the patch completed. Sadly, because I was a novice in disassembling at the time, I made some stupid mistakes in the process, I neglected the documentation, failed to store the individual steps. This makes repairing so much more complicated now...
- On the other hand, WHEN I have time to finish it is another question. Really cannot say now. I am really tempted by the AI (after scoring some points with MoM), this is the best part of work.

Here is a list of notes / changes I once made to embryonic ---> larval.
If you want, we can put some of the features into the embryo patch to get something better. It is easy and it requires almost no work from me. This way, we may find the bug(s) as well.

larval1.exe
- REFIT, transports interface

larval_2.exe
- wait issues
- AI alliances dissolved

larval_3.exe
- terra rsrve extra over

larval_4.exe
- 4th colship_two-in-stack check
- nebula ETA (ship speed. transport speed, ETA)

larval_5.exe
REVERSE
- re-made planets more clickable
- fixed transferring reserves to planet giving immense funds
- temporarily reverted (postponed) AI-AI diplomatic problem fix, until the general diplomatic balance of the game is clearer

larval_6.exe
- EVENTS rebuilt

larval_7.exe
- AI planet overload bug
- reallocation of def bug
- active spying flaw + Darloks
- several AI planet allocation improvements (more defence to special planets, less ships to Mrrshans)
- race / objective bug
- improved development routine
- AI always clear ECO fix
- AI anti spying measures

larval_8.exe
- Silicoids don't trade for planetology
- inertial stabilizer flaw
- obsolete techs cheaper
- objective influences the prices
- new techgroups !

larval_9.exe
- council rebuilt
- no more HP advantage for alliances
- space for running through, until voting
- AI rival less naive when it gets the vote from you (only half diplomatic bonus) - flaw

larval_10.exe
- bombing computers bug
- auto biodamage bug + unlimited damage

larval_11.exe
- double tech hit
- AI threatened hides his spies, not yours
- threatening pacifists
- "you must break treaty" incorrect penalty
- ask for DOW bug
- incorrect borderline for AI decision to attack

larval_12.exe
- use ship ratio for threats
- use ship ratio for war amends

larval_13.exe
- sabotage continue...
- "Zygot__" name repaired to "Zygot"
- Meklars can now build all 2700 factories on a planet (was maxed at 2500)

larval_14.exe
- design last <70 years
- anti BHG, NSP
- max 100 % on missile ship bug
- true bombers enhancement

larval_15.exe
- AI ship design

larval_16.exe
- feed POP to planets having < 1/4 of cur_pop, from planets filled with 2/3 pop, with amount of 25%
- invade from planets with min > 30 pop

larval_17.exe
- all eome damage capped at 50 DPs
- eome effect now really 1/4
- small bug (reward) fixed

17a_B
- AI differentiates 90years = when attacked defends with ships/MBs
- feed POP to planets having < 1/4 of cur_pop, from planets filled with 4/7 pop, with amount of 33%
- AI is better in building up factories, especially Meklars!

[ignatius]

Hi kyrub, great you're still with us!

I have no intention to quit MoO project completely as yet. (For me, MoO >> MoM.)

I'm certainly not the only one who is very, very glad to hear that.

Here is a list of notes / changes I once made to embryonic ---> larval.

Is this list relative to vanilla-embryonic or to Embryo_18? The reserve issue seems to have been fixed in the latter but here it seems that the fix has not happened until larval_5.

If you want, we can put some of the features into the embryo patch to get something better. It is easy and it requires almost no work from me. This way, we may find the bug(s) as well.

A consolidated embryo-version with addresses all the remaining severe bugs and interface issues (leaving out the more complex AI-improvements of the larval version) would be great and might also serve as a basis for Imperium games to give the patch more exposure to create a rock-solid foundation against which the more complicated stuff can be tested.

My top list would include

- wait issues
- nebula ETA (ship speed. transport speed, ETA)
- fixed transferring reserves to planet giving immense funds
- AI planet overload bug
- race / objective bug
- auto biodamage bug + unlimited damage
- double tech hit
- AI threatened hides his spies, not yours
- "Zygot__" name repaired to "Zygot"
- Meklars can now build all 2700 factories on a planet (was maxed at 2500)
- the annoying Scout II redesign feature lives no more

I'm not sure how much of those is already in Embryo_18. As for dealing with reversals, for the moment, I would keep anything which is already in there (esp. the auto-save feature which is just great for debugging and doing Imperium reports).

ignatius