American Politics Discussion Thread

[T-hawk]

you can actually get a free vaccine to protect you from Covid right now, yet some absolute idiots choose not to! Ask those 5 million dead if "it's not gonna happen to me" is a good excuse not to take 30 minutes out of your day to get the vaccine.

You veered off here into an argument I'm not making. I'm not against vaccination at all. I'm perfectly fine if anyone chooses to get it, if they think it improves their risk profile. I'm just absolutely against anyone being forcibly compelled to undergo a medical procedure that they do not choose or want.

So should you. There will come a time when you find your opinion is on the unpopular side of the mob, and you will find yourself in need of the rights and protections you're trying to burn down here.

It isn't 2%, but I couldn't find any support for T-Hawks number and other than cool graphs the CDC website makes no sense to my 2 shot in brain. I can confidently say its above T-Hawks number as actual deaths over US population is .22% which is higher than his given .15%. I've seen 1%, I used .5% for my prior calc, which I figure is good enough working number for percents.

It's changed over time. The death rate was higher early on, maybe around 0.5%. Then we got better at treating it. We learned what didn't work (ventilators, HCQ) and what does (vitamin D, Regeneron, the vaccines themselves.) Also the Delta variant is less severe per case and almost all new cases are now that. These modifiers have pushed the real death rate down to somewhere around or below 0.15%.

If you are judging anything by the entire cumulative numbers from the start of the pandemic, you are again falling for misleading fake-news manipulation. What matters now is the current risk for people who get it now. RB here is a gaming site - we should all know how to factor in modifiers!

Are you saying long haul isn't a real thing, or that 30% is vastly overstating the occurrence rate?

It's probably real in an extremely tiny percentage, but a number more like 0.03% than 30%. I wouldn't be surprised if it's being overstated by a factor of a thousand.

I also can't stress how much I hate the attitude of "let them die, its their choice".

Look at this from the right framing. It's not that people are celebrating the deaths of the unvaccinated. A few ghouls are, but ignore them. The right framing is that these deaths are overall the lesser evil for society taken as a whole, compared to forcibly dictating medical treatments on everyone who doesn't want it, and thus setting the precedent of destroying your ownership of your own body.

Their choice their consequence also forgets about immunodeficient people : for some people vaccine are either less efficient, innefective or even dangerous. They may not be many, but do they really deserve to be under threat by a portion of the population that refuses to help eradicate this virus ?

I'll flip that around too. Does the entire rest of society deserve to be under permanent threat and coercion to their bodily autonomy for the sake of this small portion?

No. Bubble boy does not get to put the entire world in a bubble.

[Charriu]

Their choice their consequence also forgets about immunodeficient people : for some people vaccine are either less efficient, innefective or even dangerous. They may not be many, but do they really deserve to be under threat by a portion of the population that refuses to help eradicate this virus ?

I'll flip that around too.  Does the entire rest of society deserve to be under permanent threat and coercion to their bodily autonomy for the sake of this small portion?

No.  Bubble boy does not get to put the entire world in a bubble.

How big must the small portion get to deserve protection in your opinion?

[Mjmd]

T-Hawk will never answer the brass tax death question.

I've indicated in my prior calc that I would like to see half of 150K so 75K / year. Although honestly just writing that makes my skin crawl. Its easy to say something but then to realize the horror of the actual situation is something else.

[AdrienIer]

Their choice their consequence also forgets about immunodeficient people : for some people vaccine are either less efficient, innefective or even dangerous. They may not be many, but do they really deserve to be under threat by a portion of the population that refuses to help eradicate this virus ?

I'll flip that around too.  Does the entire rest of society deserve to be under permanent threat and coercion to their bodily autonomy for the sake of this small portion?

No.  Bubble boy does not get to put the entire world in a bubble.

You use the most extreme example, but you do realize that anyone who's had chimio in the last couple of years has some form of immunodeficience ? And there are many other examples like that. Between minor inconvenience for many and death for some who could be saved you'd choose their death...

[T-hawk]

How big must the small portion get to deserve protection in your opinion?

Between minor inconvenience for many and death for some who could be saved you'd choose their death...

Sure. We do that all the time. If it were really about preventing every possible death, we'd ban all cars from going over 10 miles per hour. We've decided that the convenience of faster travel is worth some amount of accidents and deaths.

I can flip around the "how many deaths are acceptable" argument just as easily. How many people's bodily autonomy do you get to violate for the sake of your fears?

That answer is going to be far far more than mjmd's "half of 150k so 75k". There are more like 75 million people in the US and close to a billion worldwide who don't want the vaccine or didn't but caved under coercion.

[Mjmd]

How big must the small portion get to deserve protection in your opinion?

Between minor inconvenience for many and death for some who could be saved you'd choose their death...

Sure.  We do that all the time.  If it were really about preventing every possible death, we'd ban all cars from going over 10 miles per hour.  We've decided that the convenience of faster travel is worth some amount of accidents and deaths.

I can flip around the "how many deaths are acceptable" argument just as easily.  How many people's bodily autonomy do you get to violate for the sake of your fears?

That answer is going to be far far more than mjmd's "half of 150k so 75k".  There are more like 75 million people in the US and close to a billion worldwide who don't want the vaccine or didn't but caved under coercion.

Yes the government regulates all sorts of things to an acceptable level of death instead of to 0; glad we agree.

To take both of the next two together, since its a work related mandate, you can always choose to quit if you feel like the violation is worth the inconvenience of changing jobs. Seems like less of an inconvenience than someone dying, but I understand to some people that as long as the person dying isn't someone they know they are fine with that.

Lets take some rough math. Lets say since its an unvaccinated population 25% get sick (lets face it, these people aren't taking any preventative measures so I may be generous here) at .5% death rate (again unvacinated so you can't use a lower rate that includes a vaccinated pop). 75,000,000 * .25 * .005 = 93,750 deaths. Mind you, some of those people may also have families & friends, which likely aren't vaccinated as well. I don't know how many are directly federal employees, but think of the saved tax dollars in health care cost. If you can't think of 100K saved lives, think of the saved tax dollars!

[Charriu]

How big must the small portion get to deserve protection in your opinion?

Between minor inconvenience for many and death for some who could be saved you'd choose their death...

Sure.  We do that all the time.  If it were really about preventing every possible death, we'd ban all cars from going over 10 miles per hour.  We've decided that the convenience of faster travel is worth some amount of accidents and deaths.

I can flip around the "how many deaths are acceptable" argument just as easily.  How many people's bodily autonomy do you get to violate for the sake of your fears?

That answer is going to be far far more than mjmd's "half of 150k so 75k".  There are more like 75 million people in the US and close to a billion worldwide who don't want the vaccine or didn't but caved under coercion.

It's not about my fears, it's about

- protecting the most vulnerable
- reducing the chance of mutations
- getting Covid down to a managable level like for example the seasonal flu

To that extend it's rather simple:

- If you work with the most vulnerable or get in close contact with them you have to get vaccinated and I see absolutely no problem mandating this. For example people who work in the ICU. This is part of your job in this field. If you don't like it then sorry you got the wrong job. Get out.
- Everybody who works for the government has to be vaccinated. The great thing here is, you can't even argue against that, since you already said it's ok if an employer demands a vaccination from his employees and since the state/government can be an employer they have the right to demand that.
- Other then those two groups I would leave it to the employers and companies to demand vaccination from their customers and employees.
- But importantly the unvaccinated will have to go into lockdowns, quarantines etc.

Oh and since I expect you will come around with the usual freedom talk. I'm not American. I'm European. And I think what this comes down to is that the US has vastly different definitions and interpretations of freedom like for example the Europeans or other parts of the world. Some Americans would say Europeans are less free because for example freedom of speech is more restricted. As for my part I don't feel less free. On the contrary I feel more free because I know I am more protected. Same for example goes for healthcare in general. I feel more free because of the healthcare systems in Europe as they give me more security to pursue my goals in life.

[darrelljs]

Lets take some rough math. Lets say since its an unvaccinated population 25% get sick (lets face it, these people aren't taking any preventative measures so I may be generous here) at .5% death rate (again unvacinated so you can't use a lower rate that includes a vaccinated pop). 75,000,000 * .25 * .005 = 93,750 deaths.

I'd like to know the math on unvaccinated people who are taking reasonable precautions infecting and killing vaccinated people, but I'm not sure the parameters are there.

Darrell

[darrelljs]

I think what this comes down to is that the US has vastly different definitions and interpretations of freedom like for example the Europeans or other parts of the world. Some Americans would say Europeans are less free because for example freedom of speech is more restricted. As for my part I don't feel less free. On the contrary I feel more free because I know I am more protected. Same for example goes for healthcare in general. I feel more free because of the healthcare systems in Europe as they give me more security to pursue my goals in life.

Blame King George.  From the beginning, freedom has been about about freedom from government.

Darrell

[Mjmd]

Lets take some rough math. Lets say since its an unvaccinated population 25% get sick (lets face it, these people aren't taking any preventative measures so I may be generous here) at .5% death rate (again unvacinated so you can't use a lower rate that includes a vaccinated pop). 75,000,000 * .25 * .005 = 93,750 deaths.

I'd like to know the math on unvaccinated people who are taking reasonable precautions infecting and killing vaccinated people, but I'm not sure the parameters are there.

Darrell

Lets just say I think the number of unvaccinated taking reasonable precautions (masking being main one) are super low. But yes I wouldn't even attempt even the most slapdash calc for that. 

To me the biggest freedom is the freedom of speech, because then you can discuss and voice dissent against anything else.