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American Politics Discussion Thread

Hell you can ignore even  your own sides news sources if you squint really hard. It took exactly 2 seconds searching fox news to fine some news about hospitals struggling at various points.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/coronavirus-w...are-system
https://www.foxnews.com/health/texas-icu...ovid-surge
https://www.foxnews.com/health/pandemic-...-hospitals
https://www.foxnews.com/health/very-dark...s-overflow

I checked one of my local news sites (which leans R) and shockingly there is an article from yesterday! WI currently has 44 ICU beds available of 1331. Now to be fair only 1/3 of those taken are Covid patients, but the care system just doesn't have the capacity for sudden influxes. 13 of 778 intermediate care available.
https://www.tmj4.com/news/local-news/our...ases-spike
The norther part of the state has even bigger issues because it leans more R. There was an article last week about them sending patients elsewhere. I mentioned my father in law was bedridden for a month with Covid and because his case wasn't bad enough he didn't get into the Green Bay hospital even though he went. I can also say last November in Nebraska their hospitals were full (my grandma died from non covid issues, but she barely got a bed at the time). I could find a ton more articles and stories, but T-Hawk would just ignore them all anyways.

Anyways, I suspect with the holidays and trends there will be plenty more and more articles for T-Hawk to ignore.

T-Hawk masks and vaccines have PLENTIFUL AND OVERWHELMING evidence of working. You are smarter than this; look around. I hate how politics blinds people. 

Also, my 20% is in a perfect world where politicians and major news aren't spreading misinformation. You wouldn't need mask or vaccine mandates if the messaging from Republicans was different. You also realize its possible to be pro choice, but also recognize the science right? In an ideal world you would have both sides trying to prevent death and advocating for small self sacrifice for the larger community and nation. 

Are you familiar with straw man argument fallacy. I realized I had been describing without actually realizing it myself. Basically the origination point back in early 2020 was "our glorious leader lied and misled the public and in general didn't lead very well" also "masks are annoying and we don't care about others", but it sounds selfish as all hell to say that. You can't win those arguments, so Republicans created a "strawman argument". Again there isn't any legal standing to it, but it sounds a lot better than the original argument.

Again in an ideal world, people would get accurate information and have some empathy for their fellow man. They would realize their liberty shouldn't impose upon other peoples. You do not seem to realize that.
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(December 20th, 2021, 11:47)T-hawk Wrote: I laughed so much at this in the Codenames game that I have to comment here just for my own amusement:

Quote:
(December 19th, 2021, 22:38)Bobchillingworth Wrote: Deception (4)

(December 20th, 2021, 11:02)Azoth Wrote: There's also a pandemic raging. On that basis:

Point to DISEASE

(December 20th, 2021, 11:06)DaveV Wrote: DISEASE is gray

If the team had read Bob in this thread, they'd know that he eats up all the media disease propaganda and wouldn't associate that with deception at all.  lol

You clearly didn't follow us there. We were pointing to disease not because of the hint "deception" but rather because of the first hint "beat"
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I think this is just a math problem: 



Now actually doing something hurts much worse then having something taken away. So I think for Covid it should be 5 million dollars and you can solve from there. I think that vaccines would win. "Event management"/masks would be close and everything else would lose (lockdowns).
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(December 20th, 2021, 12:46)Mjmd Wrote: Hell you can ignore even  your own sides news sources if you squint really hard. It took exactly 2 seconds searching fox news to fine some news about hospitals struggling at various points.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/coronavirus-w...are-system
https://www.foxnews.com/health/texas-icu...ovid-surge
https://www.foxnews.com/health/pandemic-...-hospitals
https://www.foxnews.com/health/very-dark...s-overflow

Did you look at the dates? The first three are from July and August when Delta peaked, and the last from December 2020 when the original wave peaked. All those waves subsided and things were fine.

Did you look at the articles? The first one says absolutely nothing about numbers, just that they're worried they might have problems, it's completely fake-news framed to make you think something is happening that outright isn't.

The second has real numbers, but also still has fake-news framing. 93% of ICU beds were filled - that is pretty close to how ICU capacity normally works. 79% of regular hospital beds were filled. Do you understand how hospital capacity works? They will keep more cases in ICU when there is space available, and offload more of them to regular beds if ICU really does come closer to filling up. Same goes for your cite of the recent Wisconsin article.

I suppose you succeeded in getting me to call Fox fake news - of course they are, all the media are.


(December 20th, 2021, 12:46)Mjmd Wrote: T-Hawk masks and vaccines have PLENTIFUL AND OVERWHELMING evidence of working. You are smarter than this; look around. I hate how politics blinds people.

You missed my point - any working that they do is no more than temporary. If masks do anything at all, it's only until you stop masking and then the exponential curve starts right back up again. And the vaccines pretty obviously fade after a few months now.

My point is that there's no such thing as "beating" the virus - there is only temporarily delaying. Any argument for masks and vaccines/boosters is now an argument for them to be fixated permanently in human society forever. Is that what you want?

We're still at Terror Alert Level Orange twenty years after 9/11 and will be forever. Thanks to people like you who follow the media fear propaganda, we're also going to be at Covid Alert Level Critical forever too.


(December 20th, 2021, 12:46)Mjmd Wrote: Again in an ideal world, people would get accurate information and have some empathy for their fellow man. They would realize their liberty shouldn't impose upon other peoples. You do not seem to realize that.

Other way around. In an ideal world, people would realize that their fears don't get to impose on other people's liberty.
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I'll preface this mess by noting that I was one of the most ardent and diligent mask wearer in my vicinity, and the first to be vaccinated (I was due to surgery anyways, so I was practically half dead lol, nothing to lose, a world to win).

Quote:T-Hawk masks and vaccines have PLENTIFUL AND OVERWHELMING evidence of working.

I have reasons not to take the american ones anymore. When I was due for my booster (and in my case with my health problems the idea of body autonomy is an incomprehensible concept) the doctor recommended moderna instead of pfizer because there was an unknown amount of risk of pfizer causing heart inflammation, and the whole reason my life is fucked up is because I had heart inflammation when I was in the womb. (i.e. literally born this way, although I don't get a special flag for it lol.) I also had an inflammation hit my heart when I was 9-10 and it showed up when they dissected the removed aorta this summer (I have a plastic tube instead with a mechanical valve that can be heard from the other end of the room, life is funny. The vomiting I have been having for a month and a half is less so).

The next week or so, I learned that moderna too is likely to cause the same thing. AstraZeneca was a pain in the ass enough for me (and there is the blood clot situation), so that's out, Janssen is from the makers of the cancerous baby powder, no reason to trust them.

In fact there is this, just three days ago, https://www.reuters.com/business/healthc...021-12-17/

That leaves me with the eastern vaccines. There is Sinopharm, which is the obvious "safe" candidate for anyone with complications since it's literally just inactivated virus, there is no way to go wrong with that one as long as it is thoroughly scrutinized (and it IS given extra scrutiny, every batch, when it arrives to hungary) and the same concept is the basis of our own hungarian vaccine research. We also are acquiring / acquired the license to produce it when our factory at Debrecen comes online next year. (We have a cooperation agreement with the chinese side already)

Note that this is weaker in terms of protection (but not as weak as astrazeneca), but it is way safer, and it is better than nothing.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar...3X2100639X

The other is the winner against the alpha variant, sputnik V (see above). We already have the license for Sputnik V, we are getting the technology, and we will produce it when the factory comes online. There are more cases where sputnik is not recommended, (a pretty long list) but it is the strongest so far. It is a vector vaccine and it is safer than Astra too, despite the long list of counter-indicated groups (while our health institute doesn't scrutinize the brit vaccine nearly as hard), since every batch also gets a second-check when it arrives to my fair country.

Now let's take a look at how good all this is at the end of the day:
[Image: unknown.png]

We have the same, sorry MORE infections per day (look at the line showing the 7-day average) than we had in spring before/during vaccination. Fat good it did. It was announced before that covid is over with the vaccine, that we only need to reach 50-55% for the need of restrictive measures to end, and look, here we are again wearing masks on public transport, even though it's been decisively proven that it is not really helping other than being a polite gesture.

See, in the late 2020 we had a pretty large wave despite putting our trust in masks. You'd call that the first wave, but in fact that is the second. The first wave was so small it doesn't register on the image and it happened in the spring of 2020. I don't know how exactly we did it, but I believe it's worth studying since we had at some point the highest deaths per million in the entire world (basically, america would be past 1.2 million with this death rate, 50% more than what they report), and that is a large difference.

Now onto a more positive result, deaths. To be more precise, having fewer of them.

[Image: unknown.png]

As you can see we have the same infection count, less deaths. That is one good result from medication + vaccination + herd immunity (Since that is the main difference from the spring wave: more postcovid immunity, more vaccinations, and introduction of better antiviral drugs)

This also means we have way less (about 30% less) hospitalizations than last time, when we were recruiting volunteer workers who were taught care in non-intensive care so they could help the overloaded staff and deployed when and where needed.

Note that this is not just some fake news maker, this is the hungarian chamber of doctors, and in the linked news + video the president of the chamber's Győr-Moson-Sopron county organ is even recommending not to apply at the hospitals since they have enough work as is.
https://www.facebook.com/mokgyor/posts/2898182593783544

Also worth noting is that even in end of may, when we were already removing restrictions and cases were going down, and hospital capacity was freeing up, the Gottsegen György Országos Kardiológiai Intézet was chock full of patients. Not covid, but in general. I was the guest of the childcare ICU after they put the pleura drain back in because they didn't have a spare bed in the adult unit, and it wasn't until I was going to the sanatorium that they'd have free bed capacity. So I got to watch an old man die from pulmonary hypertension. The next morning his remains were taken away in a box. You could say I had a VIP seat. So it goes.

That is not fake news, this was my reality. I have paper proof of which parts of the hospital took care for me postop if someone is still doubting.

Western vaccines and their political dimension

So I no longer trust american vaccines, although they have good results in the study.

Firstly, their makers (J&J) and their side effects (MRNA) are too risky at least for me, and I accept everyone who thinks that this risk is too much for them. I gambled my life with that shot, I lived to tell the tale, but not everyone gets lucky. It is at the end of the day a fair worry. Endocarditis can and will cripple you for the rest of your life and you will have to forget the fear of needles and the concept of bodily autonomy. That is assuming you live to tell the tale. You'll be lucky if you can live a more or less independent life.

Secondly, let's analyze it from a real scientific point of view, which I sadly (but unsurprisingly) don't see applied to your politics.

As I said before, you have institutionalized corruption, in the form of revolving door which I define here as officials going from political office to advisory or high leadership positions in influential businesses, and lobbying which is a more "classic" form of paying off officials.

What this leads to is that both you all AND T-hawk failed to properly assess the state's real function, although at least T-hawk is, even from this wrong position, correctly warning against it's expansion. The state's real function has been long ago analyzed by german philosophers and political scientists Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels.

Quote:...the bourgeoisie has at last, since the establishment of Modern Industry and of the world market, conquered for itself, in the modern representative State, exclusive political sway. The executive of the modern state is but a committee for managing the common affairs of the whole bourgeoisie.

In lights of the above, with the officials being high ranking representatives of large businesses, the lobbying, (even here the health lobby was noted to be too strong on this page, and who can forget the war industries hmm?) this definition seems painfully accurate. Remember when Biden had that nice meeting with big business leaders and said "nothing will fundamentally change"? Precisely that.

So the state's job is not protecting individual rights, not protecting the people. The state's function is managing the common affairs of the big businesses. Big tech, Big pharma, Big guns/MIC. The people are nothing more than voters every 4 years, choosing which of the two sides of the same coin they dislike less.

This establishes that the decisions in the usa are not made by the people as a whole (despite "by the people" being such a notable part of the Gettysburg address), but by the leadership of businesses.

What is the primary function of any business? To turn a profit. And there is no profit to be made if you cannibalize your market. This is why we see powercreep in games as a service like MMOs where every expansion is a new time to get in the gear treadmill, this is why in wargames from games workshop the newest models are usually more powerful than the old ones as per the official rulebooks, and this is why pharmatic companies are not in the business of curing illnesses, but treating them.

This last part is important. If you cure a patient, then that is one less person buying your product. If you don't cure that patient but make him buy your product to stay alive, you created a captive market with no real choice of not buying, so in a practical sense you are taxing that person as if you were the government, since you have the same power over his life, which depends on your product.

Now, it shouldn't take too long to dig out the american big three vaccine makers' laundry. J&J's case is notable since it was recent.

Regardless of laundry though, the fundamentals stay the same. These vaccine makers made a killing (literally and figuratively), earning record profits and by keeping tight control over the patents, and thus deciding who gets access and who doesn't in america's vicinity, especially the case with Pfizer's "Brazil ransom" case. Who in the right mind would give up such a market and such power? Yes, nobody. These businesses have a vested interest in keeping pandemics dangerous enough so that there is always a market for their products, for mutations to come along, and drive demand, and through demand prices, and through prices profits sky high. That is a natural course of a business being a business. Nothing special. It is their right, since private property, which business is, is sacred. Human life is not. It's free market being the free market, since free market always leads to trusts, cartels, and finally monopoly through cycles of crises. It is the consolidation of practical political power into the hands of a few individuals, not elected but who play both sides of the election to make sure they don't lose.

Eastern vaccines and the chief difference

In comparison, both eastern vaccines were developed and produced in state institutes. Now we know that the capitalist state is the managing committee of the affairs of the bourgeoisie (i.e. businesses, i.e. the people who own the big things).

This demands the question, what is the difference?

It is the international situation of the local, russian bourgeoisie compared to the world hegemon. The russian state is mostly controlled by it's national bourgeoisie, which is threatened by the compradors who would sell the country, piecemeal, to the americans, british, etc. If it doesn't retain political power, there won't be russia and everything there will be owned by shell, exxon, etc, while the many nations inside the federation will be at each other's throats much like we see in the balkans. That is to say, the russian bourgeoisie can not at the moment afford to make the same moves as the american one.

The result, the state developed vaccine has been licensed to India, China, South Korea, and Brazil for production (with my fair Hungary joining next year). This is a fundamentally different approach from the private hands of the Usa.

In China, the ruling government is communist, the economical foundation is socialist, so the state, again, serves a different purpose.

As a result, Sinopharm too is open to foreign production, with a factory under construction in Belgrade, alongside our hungarian one.

I'll contrast this again to Pfizer and Astrazeneca, which are against licensing for foreign production, and didn't even deliver their doses on time. This is the difference between a monopolist whose eye is on nothing but profit, and actual medics whose goal is to help prevent disease.

This, the flipflopping opinions on vaccination by western politicians (Two doses, booster, every half year, mandates, anyámtyúkja) and the lack thereof here, as well as the overall better results (Safer or even stronger) means I have no reason anymore to trust the western vaccines, (esp. with my own and my family's experiences and the contrast between them) but every reason to trust our eastern partners.

So for those hesitating, I recommend them to come and stay here, get at least the safest one, and enjoy not living in the same madness as the remaining americans.
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I don't think the pandemic would be over in a blink of the eye, but I 100% agree the profits should be limited and knowledge freely shared. Moderna has been proven better than pfizer and is easier to ship and store and yet pfizer keeps getting big gov orders. I do not think this coincidence....... Do I think there is a huge conspiracy to limit the vaccine effectiveness to keep people sick? I don't put high odds on it, but there is always the chance I'm a naïve fool.

There is a lot in that post and I'm not as familiar with the history enough.

I was planning a big post pre Jan 6th about democracy and its many failings vs its strengths, so some I will cover there.
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Thanks for that post Boro, especially considering your health background. With that health background it is absolutely understandable that you are picky with which vaccine to take. But I just want to point this out that all available vaccines be it western or eastern do work against Covid. I know you didn't want to imply that in your post, so this is not a critique of your post.
But there is one aspect I wanted to get back to.


(December 20th, 2021, 19:48)Boro Wrote: In China, the ruling government is communist, the economical foundation is socialist, so the state, again, serves a different purpose.

As a result, Sinopharm too is open to foreign production, with a factory under construction in Belgrade, alongside our hungarian one.

While I agree that China's foreign policy with regard to the vaccine is better to battle the disease, I do want to mention that their motives aren't all altruistic either. Certainly better then the west, but not completly altruistic. After all it is also a very good PR for China if they can proof the world "we managed to beat Covid on the world stage". This is somewhat similar to their "silk road" initiative, which also helps those countries, but with additional benefit for China too. In the end though I prefer China's vaccine foreign policy, but you would be foolish to forget the benefits for China in that campaign.

By the way there's also a good case to be made why America insists on naming it the Pfizer vaccine and rarely mentioning the non-American company BionTech. After all by naming it the Pfizer vaccine you can pretend that all the "best" vaccines are from America and America safed the world, which it doesn't.
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(December 21st, 2021, 02:47)Charriu Wrote: With that health background it is absolutely understandable that you are picky with which vaccine to take.

With any health background, you have the right to be picky about what vaccine to take, or none at all. Your personal medical risk is your choice and absolutely no one else's. The vaccines have significant risk factors, and so mandating them is tyrannical and evil. Absolutely nobody has any responsibility to incur personal risk to their health for the sake of any others' fears.

I haven't brought up the topic of risk factors because it's pretty much impossible to find reliable data and know what's reliable. Every study or doctor or reporter is going to be biased with reason to slant and misrepresent the data one way or another. Government has every reason to hide any amount of adverse effects.

(That said, the VAERS database is complete bunk - there's no science or verification of anything whatsoever. That satisfy the people who say I blindly follow my side?)
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(December 21st, 2021, 02:47)Charriu Wrote: Thanks for that post Boro, especially considering your health background. With that health background it is absolutely understandable that you are picky with which vaccine to take. But I just want to point this out that all available vaccines be it western or eastern do work against Covid. I know you didn't want to imply that in your post, so this is not a critique of your post.
But there is one aspect I wanted to get back to.


(December 20th, 2021, 19:48)Boro Wrote: In China, the ruling government is communist, the economical foundation is socialist, so the state, again, serves a different purpose.

As a result, Sinopharm too is open to foreign production, with a factory under construction in Belgrade, alongside our hungarian one.

While I agree that China's foreign policy with regard to the vaccine is better to battle the disease, I do want to mention that their motives aren't all altruistic either. Certainly better then the west, but not completly altruistic. After all it is also a very good PR for China if they can proof the world "we managed to beat Covid on the world stage". This is somewhat similar to their "silk road" initiative, which also helps those countries, but with additional benefit for China too. In the end though I prefer China's vaccine foreign policy, but you would be foolish to forget the benefits for China in that campaign.

By the way there's also a good case to be made why America insists on naming it the Pfizer vaccine and rarely mentioning the non-American company BionTech. After all by naming it the Pfizer vaccine you can pretend that all the "best" vaccines are from America and America safed the world, which it doesn't.
You do realize that the Covid bioweapon was made in China with US government funding? Both China AND the US are guilty of crimes against humanity. Dr Fauci is a big proponent of "gain of function" research. He also funded the torture of beagles who had their vocal cords cut while sand fleas ate their heads off. Does no one pay attention to what happens in the world?
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(December 20th, 2021, 21:31)Mjmd Wrote: I don't think the pandemic would be over in a blink of the eye, but I 100% agree the profits should be limited and knowledge freely shared. Moderna has been proven better than pfizer and is easier to ship and store and yet pfizer keeps getting big gov orders. I do not think this coincidence....... Do I think there is a huge conspiracy to limit the vaccine effectiveness to keep people sick? I don't put high odds on it, but there is always the chance I'm a naïve fool.

There is a lot in that post and I'm not as familiar with the history enough.

I was planning a big post pre Jan 6th about democracy and its many failings vs its strengths, so some I will cover there.
You can find out about what is in Pfizer's gene therapy in 75 years. That is how long the government said it would take to release the information.
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