[Spoilers] Biggus Decius and the Sucking Vampires (Bobchillingworth / Calabim)

[Bobchillingworth]

Haha, wait, so your plan is to both re-declare in order to have some sort of worker exchange? I think that'll be more of a headache than it's worth, and it also ruins the peace-time benefit for trade routes.


And don't give Iskender a free resource for OB! OB helps him just as much as us, and we can always get trade routes with another player if we have to. We need to save our excess resources either to gift to Sareln to help him along or to trade for someone willing to offer us more substantial compensation.


I'd just trade him a gold for gems, and sign OB. A nice mutually beneficial arrangement.


And please don't get too free with the resource deals, last I heard Selrahc still expects us to eventually trade him a copper, gold, and wines (not for free though). Considering that was agreed upon a month or two ago as part of the arrangement for him to make peace with Sareln, you may want to consider it at least semi-binding. I did post about it somewhere in this thread a while back.

I also wouldn't place too much emphasis on becoming great friends with the Hippus. If you can, great, but Selrahc is more dangerous (and therefore higher on the appeasement priority list), likely able to offer trade goods of better value (like assistance in a war), and is a less appealing target for future aggression. Speaking of which, did you ever renew your NAP with him?

[DaveV]

Haha, wait, so your plan is to both re-declare in order to have some sort of worker exchange? I think that'll be more of a headache than it's worth, and it also ruins the peace-time benefit for trade routes.

The peacetime has only been a handful of turns at this point.

And don't give Iskender a free resource for OB! OB helps him just as much as us, and we can always get trade routes with another player if we have to. We need to save our excess resources either to gift to Sareln to help him along or to trade for someone willing to offer us more substantial compensation.

The free resource was for him researching Cartography. It's a relatively cheap tech, though - maybe I should just knock it out myself. That would also let me sign open borders with Sareln.

And please don't get too free with the resource deals, last I heard Selrahc still expects us to eventually trade him a copper, gold, and wines (not for free though). Considering that was agreed upon a month or two ago as part of the arrangement for him to make peace with Sareln, you may want to consider it at least semi-binding. I did post about it somewhere in this thread a while back.

I should have three gold soon, so I figured I had one spare. I only have trade connections with Sareln and Iskender at the moment. I was planning on offering some resources to Sareln once I have them connected.

I also wouldn't place too much emphasis on becoming great friends with the Hippus. If you can, great, but Selrahc is more dangerous (and therefore higher on the appeasement priority list), likely able to offer trade goods of better value (like assistance in a war), and is a less appealing target for future aggression. Speaking of which, did you ever renew your NAP with him?

Yeah, I'm much more worried about Selrahc and Pocketbeetle. I have heard exactly nothing from Selrahc (maybe my email got lost in his spam folder?), and that makes me nervous. He's pumping great people, maybe lightbulbing his way to Theology? Maybe he's letting the NAP run out on purpose (do you have any idea when it runs out?).

Selrahc and Pocketbeetle have open borders and are presumably profiting from some pretty substantial trade routes. I'd like to have a trading partner, and Iskender has a lot more cities than Sareln.

Thanks for the feedback. It's easy to get tunnel vision when I'm just talking to myself on the lurker thread.

[Bobchillingworth]

With the peace trade route bonus, since you have to wait 10 turns before declaring, it essentially means that if you'll lose that amount of turns of peace bonus on the invisible counter if you immediatey re-declare. Not a huge loss, but I don't really see the benefit. It'll also mean having to send out another round of explanations to the other players and being careful not to accidently capture Iskender's workers. So, impractical.


As for the NAP with Selrahc... I really don't know how much time, if any, is left in it. Not much. I think clarifying that issue is a pretty good excuse to email Selrahc again soon. I'll try to catch him if I see him on chat, otherwise I'd send another message. I don't think that he's planning an immediate attack (surely he must be aware that you retain the most numerous military force at the moment), but it's important to be assured of security on that front.

[DaveV]

Hey, Bob, some quick info for your discussions with Selrahc: I opened up my latest save to check the F4 screens, and Selrahc is currently in Slavery. So maybe he is headed for Ashen Veil, and I won't be so sorry not to be evil after all.

[Bobchillingworth]

Illians can't adopt religion.



He isn't online at the moment and often isn't, so send him an email whenever you have time today / tomorrow / whatever. Unless you want me to compose something, which I'd be happy to, although you obviously have a better handle on what's actually going on in-game.

[DaveV]

How's this:

Hi,
Bob and I were discussing the Calabim/Illian NAP. As far as I can tell from reading through our lurker thread, the NAP expired on turn 112. I would be interested in renewing the NAP: I think the last one was for 30 turns, and that makes sense to me again.

DaveV

[Bobchillingworth]

Looks good; short, simple, to the point, and honest.

[DaveV]

That's pretty much what I had in mind. Although I have only one worker to spare, so I'd like to make it 1 vs 1. In three turns I will be able to deliver Ale for, say, 15 turns, or Gems for 15 turns once both gems tiles are online (I'd build mines over them ASAP).

I started building my own source of Ale when you said yours was not available, so Gems are the only resource I'd be interested in.

I'll have a worker available in two turns (my turn 124). Do we need to renogiate our treaty if someone is going to declare war, or just keep to the spirit? Maybe "no uninvited units in the other player's territory"?

I think I'm going to research Cartography next so I can get open borders and some trade routes. Would you be willing to sign open borders once we're back at peace?

[DaveV]

The bears left my city site open, yay!



No reply from Selrahc, so I sent him a PM:

Hi Selrahc,

I've sent you a couple emails about renewing our NAP (I'm in favor), but I think they must be lost in your spam folder, since I haven't heard back from you.

DaveV

Sareln has a hunter swinging around the west of my territory, but he's run out of room, so I send him a message:

Your hunter in the west, near the barrow I just cleared, is about to run into a dead end of my culture and Iskender's. I'm planning to research Cartography next (4 turns); will you agree to open borders? I'll also have a second gold online in ~7 turns and would like to trade it to you for one of your palace mana. What exactly is the agreement on those?

The detour to Cartography will be worth it if I can pull in +1 commerce per city in trade. Sanitation is still something like 9 turns away, even with the golden age.

Finally, another exchange with Iskender:

All right, Gems it is then. I think if we just stick to the spirit of the NAP it'll be enough to avoid any misunderstandings. I'll send my worker next turn or the turn after, depending on a nearby lizardman.

I'm in for Open Borders.

One more thing: we should agree on what we tell the other players if they ask why we're at war.

a) the truth
b) a border skirmish involving a worker steal (not too far from the truth)
c) We hates you forever (kind of hard to explain open borders later)

[Bobchillingworth]

Had a short chat with Selrahc. He hasn't been getting your emails because he abandoned his old Hotmail account- I've updated the tech thread with his new contact details.



We talked about the NAP- he thinks it just ran out, and doesn't want to renew it because he doesn't see the need (signed the first one just to make me feel more secure and free his hands to take on Cull), and admits that he doesn't want to be tied down with NAPs with any of his neighbors. He said that he doesn't have one with PB either.


He did try to assure me that he doesn't have any aggressive intentions vs. the Calabim, and I'm inclined to believe him.


Also, Important Note: I did let it slip that you were thinking of re-declaring on Iskender as part of some sort of worker exchange program. I was of a mind to save you from having to write an explanation for Selrahc, but didn't realize until after I had said it that you were thinking of maybe lying about why you re-declared. I really don't understand why you would want to jeapordize relations with other civs by misleading them about why you're at war with the Hippus again (which makes us look like warmongers to boot), but then again I also don't understand the justification for the worker exchange to begin with. Anyway, sorry

I did at least leave the details really vauge, since I hardly know them myself.