Balancing Quests

[Charriu]

I plan to add a game option called "Quests for Everybody". This essentially triggers the quests for each player, when the fulfill all the quests requirements. For example the War Chariot quest will trigger the turn you have The Wheel and a state religion. I've looked at all the quests and this should work with each quest except for one: The Greed Quest. This triggers when you have Bronze Working and you lack either Oil, Copper or Iron. Of course everybody won't have those resources when they just researched BW, which feels a bit pointless triggering it then. But after that there won't be any fix point in time when to trigger this. I see the following options:

a) Remove the quest
b) Replace the trigger with something else
c) Leave it triggered at random

At the same time the other question is what to do about the excluded quests:

13. Blessed sea
121. Harbomaster
125. Sports league
149. Guns Butter
151. Overwhelm
152. Corporate expansion
153. Hostile takeover

All the changes to events were done back in RtR by Krill and I just took them like that for CtH. Now with this new game option I would like to look at these specific quests again and hopefully balance them. Krill removed them because they were too good. So let's look at each of them:

Blessed Sea

PreReq: GALLEY or CARAVEL or GALLEON AND State Religion BUDDHISM or CONFUCIANISM or TAOISM AND Minimum number of Landmasses is 2*default number of players for this map size (12 for standard) AND Maximum number of Landmasses you have cities on is 0.5*default number of players for this map size (3 for standard)

Goal: Have cities on 1.5*default number of players for this map size (10 for standard) landmasses while never switching State Religion

Result:
1. Convert 20 own cities to your state religion
2. Gain a temple in every city size 5 or more
3. Get a great prophet unit

This is basically a quest for water heavy maps. Was this deactivated because it is only for three specific religions or because of any specific reward? Maybe the Great Prophet, which I don't think is that strong. Both can be changed if necessary.

Harbormaster

Prereq: COMPASS AND Map has at least 40% water tiles

Goal: Build default number of players for this world size harbors (7 for standard) AND half that number +1 caravels (4 for standard)

Result:
1. All Naval Units gain the Combat 1 promotion
2. All harbors gain +1 gold
3. All Naval Units gain the Navigation 1 promotion

I think the main problem here is the Navigation 1 promotion, maybe even the Combat 1 promotion. I could replace those with different promotion. Another idea I had was replacing #3 with a new Reward: Add an extra merchant specialist to Temple of Artemis, if you have it.

Sports league

Prereq: CONSTRUCTION

Goal: Build default number of players for this world size Colosseums (7 for standard)

Result:
1. +1 happy face for every Colosseum
2.+4 culture for every collosseum
3. IF you control the Statue of Zeus wonder trigger a golden age

I think the main problem here is the golden age on Statue of Zeus. Thematically it totally makes sense. If you play with WW it is too strong, but without WW it isn't that bad. But we can't make us dependant on that game option. My suggestion would be to keep #3 but replace the wonder that triggers the golden age, maybe taking a less desired wonder, Temple of Artemis comes to mind for some thematic connection.

Guns Butter

Prereq: GUNPOWDER

Goal: Build default number of players for this world size +1 Musketmen (8 for standard)

Result:
1. All Musketman units gain the Pinch promotion
2. IF Vassalage civic gain 400 gold
3. IF you control the Taj Mahal wonder trigger a golden age

I think the main problem just like with the last quest is the golden age with Taj Mahal. Once again I would just switch the wonder to something else like for example Versailles?

Overwhelm

Prereq: FLIGHT and INDUSTRIALISM AND Map has at least 55% water tiles

Goal: Build 4 destroyers, 2 battleships, 3 carriers and 9 fighters

Result:
1. All DESTROYER, BATTLESHIP, CARRIER, FIGHTER and JET_FIGHTER units gain the Combat 1 promotion
2. All harbors gain +5 commerce
3. IF the Manhattan Project has been build pass the Nuke Ban resolution

I see two problems here the promotion for all of these units feels like too much, maybe use a less strong promotion for this. The other problem could be #3. Building nukes yourself and then denying them to the others. Then again somebody else might finish this quest before you stockpiled enough nukes.

Corporate expansion

Prereq: own a corporate HQ

Goal: spread the corporation to default number of players for this world size +1 cities (that did not have it when the quest was triggered) (8 for standard)

Result: 1.+10 gold for the corporate HQ

This was probably just removed because Corporations were removed in RtR. I don't see that big of a problem with it. Maybe reduce the gold reward if needed.

Hostile takeover

Prereq: own a corporate HQ and do not control at least 1 instance of all resources the corporation uses

Goal: own all resource types the corporation uses

Result: 1.+20 gold for the corporate HQ

This was probably just removed because Corporations were removed in RtR. I don't see that big of a problem with it. Maybe reduce the gold reward if needed.

[Tarkeel]

Blessed sea
The overly specific religion trigger is a problem, but that can be overcome by making it generic.
The landmasses trigger can easily be triggered by islands, making it problematic for maps with uneven access to water or islands.
The goal criteria is pretty harsh and unlikely to be triggered in a MP game, but because it's so obvious who will compete for it, the temple bonus could very easily be for every single city in your empire.
Conclusion: I'm happy with this one left out.

Harbor master
40% water isn't such a big obstacle; even PB63 was close to that. Harbor requirement will favor EXP, but not sure if that's a bad thing.
Agree that the main problem is Nav1, as it bypasses the need for flanking.
I think this could be an interesting addition, but again if access to water is uneven it will be highly problematic.
Conclusion: I think this one can be modded to be viable

Sports League
Given how popular colosseums are, it would be nice if this could fit in.
Changing to ToA is likely viable, another option would be Chichen Itza

Guns Butter
Another issue is the Musket-based UUs, which can be built and then upgraded to (Mech) Infantry later on, but that's probably ok?
Agree that Versailles could be viable replacement, or Hagia Sophia.

Overwhelm
I think the main issue here is that this will always go to the tech leader, which usually is the game leader.
Good point on abusing the third reward.
Conclusion: I'm happy with this one left out.

Corporate Expansion
One issue is that we usually don't found all corps, and not all are founded at the same time, so whomever founds the first one is likely to get this.
Reward isn't that big though, and it would favor CreCon over MinInc.

Hostile Takeover
This one is likely triggered by pillaging one of your own resources, then hooking it back up the same turn. Similar issue to the one above, will go to the first player to found a corp.

[Commodore]

Frankly, when everyone gets these quests, they're less a huge random boon, more just yet another wonder to chase, most objections go away I think.

Blessed Sea

PreReq: GALLEY or CARAVEL or GALLEON AND State Religion BUDDHISM or CONFUCIANISM or TAOISM AND Minimum number of Landmasses is 2*default number of players for this map size (12 for standard) AND Maximum number of Landmasses you have cities on is 0.5*default number of players for this map size (3 for standard)

Goal: Have cities on 1.5*default number of players for this map size (10 for standard) landmasses while never switching State Religion

Result:
1. Convert 20 own cities to your state religion
2. Gain a temple in every city size 5 or more
3. Get a great prophet unit

This is basically a quest for water heavy maps. Was this deactivated because it is only for three specific religions or because of any specific reward? Maybe the Great Prophet, which I don't think is that strong. Both can be changed if necessary.

Make it valid for all religions are I think this is fine. Isn't there a crusade for other religions too?

Harbormaster

Prereq: COMPASS AND Map has at least 40% water tiles

Goal: Build default number of players for this world size harbors (7 for standard) AND half that number +1 caravels (4 for standard)

Result:
1. All Naval Units gain the Combat 1 promotion
2. All harbors gain +1 gold
3. All Naval Units gain the Navigation 1 promotion

I think the main problem here is the Navigation 1 promotion, maybe even the Combat 1 promotion. I could replace those with different promotion. Another idea I had was replacing #3 with a new Reward: Add an extra merchant specialist to Temple of Artemis, if you have it.

Nav1 is the broken part, Merchant specialist to ToA is a fine alternate.

Sports league

Prereq: CONSTRUCTION

Goal: Build default number of players for this world size Colosseums (7 for standard)

Result:
1. +1 happy face for every Colosseum
2.+4 culture for every collosseum
3. IF you control the Statue of Zeus wonder trigger a golden age

I think the main problem here is the golden age on Statue of Zeus. Thematically it totally makes sense. If you play with WW it is too strong, but without WW it isn't that bad. But we can't make us dependant on that game option. My suggestion would be to keep #3 but replace the wonder that triggers the golden age, maybe taking a less desired wonder, Temple of Artemis comes to mind for some thematic connection.

GA is pretty awesome for a reward, but Colosseums are meh. ToA reward makes it okay maybe?

Guns Butter

Prereq: GUNPOWDER

Goal: Build default number of players for this world size +1 Musketmen (8 for standard)

Result:
1. All Musketman units gain the Pinch promotion
2. IF Vassalage civic gain 400 gold
3. IF you control the Taj Mahal wonder trigger a golden age

I think the main problem just like with the last quest is the golden age with Taj Mahal. Once again I would just switch the wonder to something else like for example Versailles?

Versailles is an inspired wonder for the GA.

Overwhelm

Prereq: FLIGHT and INDUSTRIALISM AND Map has at least 55% water tiles

Goal: Build 4 destroyers, 2 battleships, 3 carriers and 9 fighters

Result:
1. All DESTROYER, BATTLESHIP, CARRIER, FIGHTER and JET_FIGHTER units gain the Combat 1 promotion
2. All harbors gain +5 commerce
3. IF the Manhattan Project has been build pass the Nuke Ban resolution

I see two problems here the promotion for all of these units feels like too much, maybe use a less strong promotion for this. The other problem could be #3. Building nukes yourself and then denying them to the others. Then again somebody else might finish this quest before you stockpiled enough nukes.

Maybe its okay? Modern era so pretty moot for ancient era games.

Corporate expansion

Prereq: own a corporate HQ

Goal: spread the corporation to default number of players for this world size +1 cities (that did not have it when the quest was triggered) (8 for standard)

Result: 1.+10 gold for the corporate HQ

This was probably just removed because Corporations were removed in RtR. I don't see that big of a problem with it. Maybe reduce the gold reward if needed.

Hostile takeover

Prereq: own a corporate HQ and do not control at least 1 instance of all resources the corporation uses

Goal: own all resource types the corporation uses

Result: 1.+20 gold for the corporate HQ

This was probably just removed because Corporations were removed in RtR. I don't see that big of a problem with it. Maybe reduce the gold reward if needed.

Both of these are fine, eh. Nothing wrong with giving corps nice things.

[Charriu]

Frankly, when everyone gets these quests, they're less a huge random boon, more just yet another wonder to chase, most objections go away I think.

Blessed Sea

PreReq: GALLEY or CARAVEL or GALLEON AND State Religion BUDDHISM or CONFUCIANISM or TAOISM AND Minimum number of Landmasses is 2*default number of players for this map size (12 for standard) AND Maximum number of Landmasses you have cities on is 0.5*default number of players for this map size (3 for standard)

Goal: Have cities on 1.5*default number of players for this map size (10 for standard) landmasses while never switching State Religion

Result:
1. Convert 20 own cities to your state religion
2. Gain a temple in every city size 5 or more
3. Get a great prophet unit

This is basically a quest for water heavy maps. Was this deactivated because it is only for three specific religions or because of any specific reward? Maybe the Great Prophet, which I don't think is that strong. Both can be changed if necessary.

Make it valid for all religions are I think this is fine. Isn't there a crusade for other religions too?

Yes there is another one for other religions:

Holy Mountain

Prereq: State Religion JUDAISM or CHRISTIANITY or ISLAM

Goal: Build 2*default number of players for this world size temples/monasteries (14 for standard), cathedrals count as 4 temples/monasteries to reveal the holy mountain peak. Settle at the holy mountain peak to control it

Result:
1. +1 happy face in all your cities

Only Hinduism doesn't get its own quest.

[Miguelito]

Imo all the quests appearing deterministically is too much and too strong. How about picking 3 or 5 at random at game start, and then these become available to every player who meetsthe requirements? Meaning there is competition for the quests, but you can't play deterministically for them, as you don't know beforehand if they are present in the game. Otherwise I feel like they go beyond "nice addition".

[Gavagai]

Imo all the quests appearing deterministically is too much and too strong.

Yes

[Gavagai]

Free golden age, free pinch on Muskets, Nav1, and Nuclear ban are all broken rewards.

[Charriu]

Keep in mind quests are still events, so in order to play with quests for everybody you always have to play with events too. Therefore always having a lot of random elements. This new quests for everybody option is therefore meant for wackier games like PB64.
Events/Quests present in the game are selected on starting a game. Each quest has a probability to appear in the game, but there is no way for me to say we always want 3-5 quests. This would require a lot more code and testing.

[Gavagai]

This new quests for everybody option is therefore meant for wackier games like PB64.

I understand that but the aforementioned rewards are broken even for such games.

[Gavagai]

Well, maybe free pinch is not that bad bc Musket is not a mainline unit. So we can have that. But not free GAs, this is absurdly strong. Maybe with Versailles it's fine because this wonder is really hard to get.