Redesigning Conjunctions?

[Seravy]

See https://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/show...#pid822091

Also, I feel the current effect of these events is all over the place with no overall theme whatsoever.
I actually see no reason why owning a specific type of node should be rewarded by the event as it's pretty random who gets which type of node, the correlation between the player's realm and their nodes is fairly weak. It's a leftover from the original game but we can probably do something better.

Whatever we decide, this change won't be in the next update, it's a discussion for the update after that.

How about this :

Sorcery (conjunction)
Obtaining Casting Skill from power is 2x effective
Fantastic creatures have +2 resistance
Sorcery, Global enchantment spells are 33% cheaper

Nature (conjunction)
Obtaining Mana from power is 2x effective
Fantastic creatures have +2 defense
Nature and Summoning spells are 33% cheaper

Chaos (conjunction)
Obtaining Research from power is 2x effective
Chaos and Combat spells are 33% cheaper
Fantastic creatures have +2 attack

Life (good moon)
Obtaining gold from cities is 2x effective
Normal units have +1 hp
Life and Unit Enchantment spells are 33% cheaper

Death (bad moon)
Obtaining production from cities is 2x effective
Normal units have -2 resistance (and/or) +1 movement
Death and City Enchantment spells are 33% cheaper

This gives Chaos, Nature and Sorcery a theme of "magical" realms - those with nodes - they buff summoned units and improve the usage of magic power. Meanwhile Life and Death are the "mortal" realms - those without nodes - they affect normal units and improve cities instead.

[Slingers]

Maybe more casting skill from power thanks to an event should be removed?
Creatures of the realm could gain increased stats as if the (node) aura were everywhere.
(+2 Melee, +2 Ranged, +2 Special Attacks, +2 Armor and +2 Resistance)
The effects of Specialist and Omnicient are tested.
 
One more idea:

Sorcery Conjunction
Sorcery creatures gain aura stats
+16% Research and an additional +3.5% for each Sorcery book
Sorcery and Global enchantment spells are 12% cheaper and those spells are 50% harder to dispel.

Nature Conjunction
Nature creatures gain aura stats
Increased growth rate in all cities, e.g. as if it would be +2 maximal population and +0.25 for each Nature book.
Nature and Summoning spells are 12% cheaper and those spells are 50% harder to dispel.

Chaos Conjunction
Chaos creatures gain aura stats
+16% power and an additional +3.5% for each Chaos book
Chaos and Combat spells are 12% cheaper and those spells are 50% harder to dispel.

Good Moon
Life creatures gain aura stats, Normal units +2 Resistance.
+16% Gold from cities +3.5% for each Life book
Life and Unit Enchantment spells are are 12% cheaper and those spells are 50% harder to dispel.  

Bad Moon
Death creatures gain aura stats, Normal units -2 Resistance.
+16% Production from cities +3.5% for each Death book

Death spells and City Enchantment spells are 12% cheaper and those spells are 50% harder to dispel. < should exclude Life/Nature city buffs

[Suppanut]

I agree with you that conjuncture really need redesign. some conjuncture are too good (sorcery) while effect not that favor much of realm they tie to.

I think my opinion is mixed between one by Seravy and one by Slingers:

Sorcery Conjunction
Sorcery creatures gain aura stats
Obtaining Research from power is 2x effective
Cities gain research bonus from city based on number of sorcery books.
Sorcery and Global/Combat enchantment spells are 33% cheaper and those spells are 50% harder to dispel/counter.

Nature Conjunction
Nature creatures gain aura stats
Obtaining Casting Skill from power is 2x effective
Cities gain population growth bonus from city based on number of nature books.
Nature and Summoning spells are 33% cheaper and those spells are 50% harder to dispel/counter.

Chaos Conjunction
Chaos creatures gain aura stats
Obtaining Mana from power is 2x effective
Cities gain power bonus from city based on number of chaos books.
Chaos and Combat spells and Overland spells target enemy units/wizards are 33% cheaper and those spells are 50% harder to dispel/counter.

Good Moon
Life creatures gain aura stats, Normal units +2 Resistance.
Obtaining gold from cities is 2x effective
Cities gain gold bonus from city based on number of life books.
Life and Unit Enchantment spells are are 33% cheaper and those spells are 50% harder to dispel/counter.

Bad Moon
Death creatures gain aura stats, Normal units -2 Resistance.
Obtaining production from cities is 2x effective
Cities gain production bonus from city based on number of death books.
Death spells and City Enchantment spells are 33% cheaper and those spells are 50% harder to dispel/counter.

[zitro1987]

I'm not a big fan of 'spells of a kind are cheaper' but adding the associated realm in its entirety makes it actually favor the realm. I'd probably go for 25% cheaper rather than 33% as it might be too impactful for something being associated with luck (or how players call it RNG).

To compensate, I'd make the unit effects a bit stronger, at least the fantastic unit effects.
*Sorcery : +3 resist to fantastic units
*Nature : +3 armor to fantastic units
*Chaos: +3 attack to fantastic units (or +1 attack and +1 move)
*Life: +1hp is fine (but a +6 distributed to figures could be better)
*Death: -2 resist and +1 move

I feel skill is more fitting on chaos (combat spells) and research on sorcery (see omniscient)

[Seravy]

I think we should keep it to 2, maybe 3 effects for each conjunction, definitely shouldn't have 4.

So we can choose any two (or 3) or these :

1. Realm spells X% cheaper and/or spells of <type> x% cheaper
2. Magic to SP/MP/RP and city gold/production up X% OR city power/research/growth/mana/production up or same but percentage depends on owned books
3. Unit stat +/- X
4. Realm unit gains node aura effect everywhere
5. Other

Let's consider each option carefully.

1. Simple to understand and provides a clear benefit to whoever casts more of the affected spells, so player choice and RNG both have roles.
If it only affects the realm spells, RNG is more powerful - you either have the realm or don't, choice is only involved if you play two or more realms. However it fits best with what the events actually are (something that buffs a realm and indirectly, players using it)
If it only affects spell types instead, the RNG factor is reduced a lot but still somewhat present - some realms are bad at using some spell types. Just because there is a Chaos Conjunction, you probably won't spam Exorcise and Star Fires all over the place. Still, for each realm, at least 3-4 of the events can be fully taken advantage of and only a few are "useless". By selecting the spell types carefully, the RNG factor can be reduced even more.
Using both takes the best of both worlds without taking the disadvantages. It fits thematically (realm spells) but RNG has low relevance as anyone not playing the realm can still use the bonus through casting other spells - assuming they do so, the net economic benefit is equal to every player regardless of the realm. It also doesn't take two "slots" as it will be perceived as one effect by players even though it's really two and doesn't take much additional text space either.

I see little reason to not pick "both" if this option is chosen.

2. SP/RP/MP has low dependency on luck and rewards players who have a good "stock" of resources by allowing them to distrubute more towards the doubled resource. City gold and production doesn't involve player skill as much but it still does (raise/lower tax rates to improve the gold vs the production).
5 types of city resource bonus rewards player skill less - these come from buildings and you can't really respond to the event by suddenly building a bunch of Cathedrals.
Basing it on book count seemingly pushes it even further towards luck however in most cases at least prioritizing the resources is expected anyway as the realm has synergy with them. So despite the higher luck factor (do I even have the right books to get any bonus? But if I do I probably have the buildings as well.) it's probably still better than being unaffected by the books.
Overall I think if this category is chosen, it should be the SP/MP/RP/Gold/Production as that rewards player skill vs pure luck.

Whether skill is for Sorcery or Chaos is hard to decide, but Sorcery has this ability by design (Uranus' Blessing and AEther Binding) so it fits there thematically, meanwhile Chaos has nothing to do with research but profits most of having it from all realms.
Doing the opposite would leave both realms with something they can profit from massively but can't really do so it doesn't fit thematically. There are no Sorcery spells that give research, nor Chaos spells that grant skill.
...but wait, this assumes MP is Nature.
What if it's not?
Nature gaining the research bonus (Nature's Eye has it) fits somewhat, which could leave Sorcery with skill (perfect) and Chaos with mana (actually pretty good, combat spells are expensive and producing mana encourages going to war now, not later, to use that mana up in combat).
Nature doesn't benefit all that much from a research bonus though and generally doesn't want to allocate too much on RP, so idk.

3. Nature and Death already does this and honestly I would miss it if we were to remove it. I do agree the stats could be higher on fantastic units, +3 seems fair.

4. This is entirely RNG and you can't do anything about it - you or your opponent either had the right creatures summoned or not. At best if helps combat summons but not all realms have good combat summons either.
While it does fit well thematically, it's probably not good for gameplay at all.

5. Maybe something with diplomacy that involves realms? Some pure RNG stuff like more item, hero and mercenary offers if you play that realm? Temporal major boost in fame (+10 for each book in the realm? Fame doesn't affect hero offers anymore though.)

Edit : one more possible idea, we could split them up to two different events for each realm and distribute the abilities between the two.
For example :

Sorcery Conjunction
All Fantastic Creatures gain +3 Resistance.
All Sorcery nodes produce 50% more power.

Sorcery Ascension
All Sorcery and Global Enchantment spells cost 33% less.
Double SP production.

Nature Conjunction
All Fantastic Creatures gain +3 Defense.
All Nature nodes produce 50% more power.

Nature Ascension
All Nature and Summoning spells cost 33% less.
Double MP production.

Chaos Conjunction
All Fantastic Creatures gain +3 Attack.
All Nature nodes produce 50% more power.

Chaos Ascension
All Chaos, Combat and Special spells cost 33% less.
Double RP production.

Good Moon
All Normal units gain +1 HP and 1 overload Movement.

Holy Moon
All Life and Unit Enchantment spells cost 33% less.
Cities produce 50% more gold.

Bad Moon
All Normal units lose 2 Resistance and 1 combat movement (to minimum of 1).

Eclipse
All Death and City Enchantment spells cost 33% less.
Cities generate 50% more (maybe less instead?) production. (or maybe "Cities have a population growth rate of 0" instead?)

[zitro1987]

I think the SP/MP/RP and city economy effects of moons should stay - it is a good idea and is not RNG-driven ... but tying it to a realm is kind of vague and up for debate. Same for the spell types also implied by realm (nature summons after cockatrice are not necessarily superior, sorcery has best combat summons, other realms have more globals than sorcery ... etc).

I think we should remove the RNG aspect of rewarding a realm and have a bit more flexibility with the event names as a result. The players that benefit most are the ones that can adapt.

Event 1 :
Double SP production
Overland special spells cost 33% less

Event 2:
Double MP production
Summons and Combat Spells cost 33% less (since summons include combat, these 2 fit naturally together)

Event 3:
Double RP production
Arcane and global enchantments cost 33% less (research can imply arcane and advanced enchantments, thus the 2 are grouped together)

Good Moon:
Cities generate 50% more gold
'positive' Unit and City enchantments cost 33% less

Bad Moon:
Cities generate 50% more production but grow half as quickly (slavery theme)
'curse' unit and city enchantments cost 33% less

Bad moon is where I struggle ... the majority of city enchantments imply goodness, prosperity, growth, etc ... fits better under good moon and benefits life most.

Another idea of good/bad moon is changing their role:

Good Moon:
Cities generate 50% more gold
Enchantments twice as hard to dispel (and ideally curses 50% easier to dispel)

Bad Moon:
Cities generate 50% more production but city growth halved.
Enchantments 50% easier to dispel (and ideally curses twice as hard to dispel)

Good moon rewards players stockpiling enchantments while bad moon makes such strategies vulnerable to mass-dispels.

[Suppanut]

I think we should rename bad moon to black moon to remove strong negative conotation.

https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/mo...-moon.html

https://www.yogajournal.com/lifestyle/as...astrology/

I imagine that good moon is time between blue moons with no dark moon interruption while bad/dark moon is time between two dark moons that not interrupted by blue moon

[MrBiscuits]

Could we change how often they happen and how long they last?

At the moment they can last 1 turn or 30 depending on the RNG. Maybe just have them last a certain length of time, rather than have a chance of ending each turn.

Also it would be good if they were more likely to happen if there hasn't been one for a while.

[Slingers]

There must be a bunch of amazing ideas that have come up in the past that deserve to be added before 5 more Conjunction type events. Such a change would also result in more interesting events appearing less frequently. Compare some changed numbers to a Tsunami/ Deluge event: Witness a random coastal area or island sink into the ocean! Pity the Fortress city of Tauron! Or the Gift from the Gods event granting a relic that cannot be obtained any other way. Or how about Planar Seal as an event?

It is reasonable to opt for 2-3 effects for one Conjunction event.
These would be my favorites at the moment:

[1] Sorcery Conjunction  
Global Enchantment spells are twice as hard to dispel.
Double SP production.

[2] Chaos Conjunction  
Direct damage spells deal 33% more damage.
Double MP production.

[3] Nature Conjunction  
Fantastic creatures gain
+2 Melee, +2 Ranged, +2 Special Attacks, +2 Armor, +2 Resistance.
Double RP production.

[4] Good Moon  
Cities produce 50% more Gold.
Unit enchantments are twice as hard to dispel.

[5] Bad Moon  
Cities have a population growth rate of 0.
All normal units lose 2 Resistance in combat.

There's already AEther Flux, which reduces casting costs by 50%, so reducing spell costs again would be somehow redundant.
An event that makes spells harder to dispel could be worth it on its own.

[Seravy]

I do agree cost reductions are redundant and somewhat boring too.

Global enchantments being harder to dispel feels like it benefits Life and Chaos more than Sorcery and it's also a somewhat niche effect (you generally don't even have Disjunction until the endgame). Maybe resistance for all spells (or the opposite, increased dispel power) would be better.

0 Growth rate is unfair towards growth based strategies - Stream of Life, Nature Omniscient Guardian, etc., these generally can't adapt on the fly because they had to spent most of their starting picks on enabling the strategy.

One more idea for Nature : Summoning spells have a 50% chance to summon two creatures.
I don't have any good ideas for Death though. Spells getting a stronger save modifier is redundant with units losing resistance but I can't really think of other spell related effects. Maybe "Undead units gain <bonus>" but that's something other realms can't take advantage of at all.