American Politics Discussion Thread

[superdeath]

To me, those that decide to break and enter dont have any of those. They dont have ethics, a "real" fear of jail, nor do they contribute to society. So.. If they are unlucky enough/dumb enough to squeeze thru my window, they are likely to leave in a body bag, or at least be scared shitless while i call the cops.

[Tarkeel]

What are the laws in the US? My instinct is that if you shoot a non-carrying home invader (particularly one without any weapon at all) that you could be prosecuted for disproportionate self-defense. Particularly if you kill them. But maybe in the US it's different?

Well, the laws vary by state, but in general there's a lot of laws meant to "punish the criminal". One of the worse I've heard of, was a an armed robbery gone wrong, where the surviving robber was charged and convicted of the other robber's murder, who was shot by the shopkeeper.

[Mjmd]

You think there is something wrong with people who would go shoot a group of people, but you think its fine to shoot someone who you have no clue who they are or what they might do in the future? Over a little bit of money? Hell they could contribute to society in the most important way and be a postal worker! The USPS hires people with felony convictions (typically non violent and non dangerous driving related).

If its fine to shoot up people over break in theft, should people be going and shooting up managerial offices? Wage theft dwarfs other types of theft in the US. While breaks ins are usually spontaneous (opportunistic) and one time events, wage theft is usually planned and a long term endeavor. While I'm fully for better laws around wage theft, I don't think vigilante justice is the way to go.

I will point out this whole argument is basically a red herring argument for gun control, because again the chances of a gun actually stopping a break in isn't high. It happens, but there is a lot of side harm that comes from not requiring something as simple as a gun safe for this rare scenario.

[Jowy]

I want someone to tell me its okay for people to steal their things, kill their dog, do whatever they want to you and your family because they dont have a weapon. Im trying not to be bias, but man its hard to not feel seething anger at someone having even the balls to break in and expect to get away with it because they cant be shot/hurt.

If there wasn't an easy access to guns, burglars wouldn't have an easy way to kill you or your family. I don't fault the people for having guns. You have to have a gun because the burglar will likely have a gun. The burglar has to have a gun because the home owner will likely have a gun. Both are likely to use their gun, because they don't want to get shot by the other guy with a gun. Almost like the guns are the problem. Also, for the most part people steal to survive. Not because they want to kill people. It would not be a bad idea to have some kind of an alarm system or otherwise make your home less attractive to burglars though. I understand it's not just a monetary loss, but a mental hit to have people invade your sanctuary.

[DaveV]

The whole concept of having a gun for protection is deeply flawed. Here's one of many articles that show that a gun in your house is much more likely to injure or kill someone in your household (domestic violence, suicide, accident) than to drive off some theoretical intruder. How much more likely? Hard to say, since federal agencies are forbidden from collecting or analyzing those statistics, in an appalling measure of NRA influence.

I, for one, would not be able to shoot someone who was not directly threatening me or a family member. If I did shoot someone, I believe I'd need some intense counseling to deal with the trauma of having killed/injured a fellow human. Full disclosure: I don't own a gun, and refused to take possession of my Dad's handgun after he died (of natural causes).

The end result of the NRA's "more guns make us safer" campaign is a return to the Wild West days, where the most sociopathic among us are in charge. If someone else is willing to shoot me because I cut him off on the highway, and I'm reluctant or unable to shoot him, then he controls my behavior. As in my post many many pages ago in this thread, I recommend watching "The man who shot Liberty Valance" for a thought-provoking portrayal of how widespread firearm possession distorts society.

[superdeath]

I want someone to tell me its okay for people to steal their things, kill their dog, do whatever they want to you and your family because they dont have a weapon. Im trying not to be bias, but man its hard to not feel seething anger at someone having even the balls to break in and expect to get away with it because they cant be shot/hurt.

If there wasn't an easy access to guns, burglars wouldn't have an easy way to kill you or your family. I don't fault the people for having guns. You have to have a gun because the burglar will likely have a gun. The burglar has to have a gun because the home owner will likely have a gun. Both are likely to use their gun, because they don't want to get shot by the other guy with a gun. Almost like the guns are the problem. Also, for the most part people steal to survive. Not because they want to kill people. It would not be a bad idea to have some kind of an alarm system or otherwise make your home less attractive to burglars though. I understand it's not just a monetary loss, but a mental hit to have people invade your sanctuary.

Burglars would still have knives, crowbars, and other tools that can kill/maim. Most of which wouldnt be as quick. Plus, they have the added benefit of being alot easier to conceal that you commited the crime than everyone in a couple block radius hearing gunshots.

Guns arent the sole problem in this scenario. People willing to steal to "survive" when there are plenty of other ways to go about it.. it puzzles me.

[superdeath]

The whole concept of having a gun for protection is deeply flawed. Here's one of many articles that show that a gun in your house is much more likely to injure or kill someone in your household (domestic violence, suicide, accident) than to drive off some theoretical intruder. How much more likely? Hard to say, since federal agencies are forbidden from collecting or analyzing those statistics, in an appalling measure of NRA influence.

I, for one, would not be able to shoot someone who was not directly threatening me or a family member. If I did shoot someone, I believe I'd need some intense counseling to deal with the trauma of having killed/injured a fellow human. Full disclosure: I don't own a gun, and refused to take possession of my Dad's handgun after he died (of natural causes).

The end result of the NRA's "more guns make us safer" campaign is a return to the Wild West days, where the most sociopathic among us are in charge. If someone else is willing to shoot me because I cut him off on the highway, and I'm reluctant or unable to shoot him, then he controls my behavior. As in my post many many pages ago in this thread, I recommend watching "The man who shot Liberty Valance" for a thought-provoking portrayal of how widespread firearm possession distorts society.

Having a pool in your backyard increases your odds of drowning.

I do find it interesting (if true) that federal agencies are forbidden from collecting or analyzing those statistics. I do agree that the NRA has too much pull, they used to be a good thing.

I dont know for certain that i would shoot someone running off with my things, or just searching through them.. but i hope that if i shot someone id need counseling/therapy, but i dont know for certain.

[Jowy]

I want someone to tell me its okay for people to steal their things, kill their dog, do whatever they want to you and your family because they dont have a weapon. Im trying not to be bias, but man its hard to not feel seething anger at someone having even the balls to break in and expect to get away with it because they cant be shot/hurt.

If there wasn't an easy access to guns, burglars wouldn't have an easy way to kill you or your family. I don't fault the people for having guns. You have to have a gun because the burglar will likely have a gun. The burglar has to have a gun because the home owner will likely have a gun. Both are likely to use their gun, because they don't want to get shot by the other guy with a gun. Almost like the guns are the problem. Also, for the most part people steal to survive. Not because they want to kill people. It would not be a bad idea to have some kind of an alarm system or otherwise make your home less attractive to burglars though. I understand it's not just a monetary loss, but a mental hit to have people invade your sanctuary.

Burglars would still have knives, crowbars, and other tools that can kill/maim. Most of which wouldnt be as quick. Plus, they have the added benefit of being alot easier to conceal that you commited the crime than everyone in a couple block radius hearing gunshots.

Guns arent the sole problem in this scenario. People willing to steal to "survive" when there are plenty of other ways to go about it.. it puzzles me.

If surviving was easy we wouldn't have so many people around the world struggling and failing to do it. To take an example close to you, there are around 580.000 homeless people in the USA right now. Do you think they are homeless by choice? If you look more globally, every year 9.000.000 people die from simply not having food to eat. I'm not saying it's the only reason to steal. As described before, rich people steal all the time even though they don't need to. But they wouldn't risk their lives to do it. I guess the point is that it would be more accurate to assume that other people are not out to get you for no reason.

[DaveV]

...federal agencies are forbidden from collecting or analyzing those [gun violence] statistics, in an appalling measure of NRA influence.

I do find it interesting (if true) that federal agencies are forbidden from collecting or analyzing those statistics. I do agree that the NRA has too much pull, they used to be a good thing.

Here's a link to the wikipedia article on the Dickey amendment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dickey_Amendment

I missed it, but the (effective) ban on gun violence research ended in 2018 or 2020, depending on your viewpoint. Still, 1996-2020 is a huge gap and it will take a long time to recover that missing data.

[superdeath]

If surviving was easy we wouldn't have so many people around the world struggling and failing to do it. To take an example close to you, there are around 580.000 homeless people in the USA right now. Do you think they are homeless by choice? If you look more globally, every year 9.000.000 people die from simply not having food to eat. I'm not saying it's the only reason to steal. As described before, rich people steal all the time even though they don't need to. But they wouldn't risk their lives to do it. I guess the point is that it would be more accurate to assume that other people are not out to get you for no reason.

A large chunk of the Homeless in the USA are mentally unfit/drug addicts. I have one that tries to live in the alcoves of businesses literally right around the corner from me. She gets over 2k a month just from having her mental disabilities, and she blows it all on drugs/alcohol.

No one is homeless by choice (more or less) thats a given. Everyone would love to be in a big mansion/ect, but those that are in a state of homelessness and dont either move if its due to housing costs: aka places like New York where the rent can be absolutely absurd, or get a job that pays well enough to get out of homelessness. Yeah, there will be edge cases where people have had horrendous luck, their parents died, they have mental issues preventing them from keeping a good paying job, ect.

9million people dying of starvation is a societal issue. Trying to justify breaking into someone elses home and stealing their hard-earned things even though (at least here in the USA) they have access to food banks, churches, and other non-government and government handouts.. i just cant. 


I know people arent out to get me. I dont believe in any form of government or person-boogieman. However, i earned my things. Ill be damned if i let someone have an easier time walking out with them. Also, shooting rabbit pests at my grandpa's or target shooting is... fun.