American Politics Discussion Thread

[Boro]

i guess that really got the genie out of the bottle, hah.

[darrelljs]

I promise you Bush/Cheney wasn't the first (or tenth) U.S. administration that lied to the world and lied to the American public to justify a geopolitical outcome they desired. There is absolutely no linkage between that kind of behavior and where Trump has taken things. Look to Hitler if you want a historical analogy.

Darrell

[Tarkeel]

It wasn't the first, but it was for many the point where other western nations didn't follow blindly.

[darrelljs]

It wasn't the first, but it was for many the point where other western nations didn't follow blindly.

I think de Gaulle would disagree .  Anyway, given the state of Europe post WW2 there was not much choice.  Once the Berlin Wall fell and Soviet Russia collapsed, Europe didn't have the same dependence on the US for security and it was no longer a given they'd line up.

Edit: And outside the Cold War, our shenanigans were mostly in Latin America and of less interest to Europe (e.g. creating the country of Panama to secure control of the canal).

Darrell

[GeneralKilCavalry]

I promise you Bush/Cheney wasn't the first (or tenth) U.S. administration that lied to the world and lied to the American public to justify a geopolitical outcome they desired.  There is absolutely no linkage between that kind of behavior and where Trump has taken things.  Look to Hitler if you want a historical analogy.

Darrell

1. I listed 3 other examples of administrations dating back to McKinley doing exactly that, so I'm unsure what point you're trying to make with that.

2. The key difference is in the scale of the lie, the widespread instant belief in it, and the obviousness to which it was a lie. They didn't even need a false flag, all that it took was "expert testimony" and "reliable sources". The linkage is that this behavior undermines the trust in "American democracy", and in that context, Trump begins to have a certain appeal to people that wouldn't have voted Republican before, pushing them to vote in a way that directly contradicts their material interests. I know people who single-issue voted for Trump on the promise that "he would get us out of wars".

3. The other difference is the lack of reckoning. We had explicit war criminals in Vietnam, people knew about My Lai -- by contrast American war crimes in Iraq are thrown under the rug, we've found the convenient excuse that wikileaks is linked to russia to forget about what we know the US military did for 20 years in Iraq and Afghanistan. You can even see how the media unfairly hunted Biden after his decision to withdraw from Afghanistan -- his positive approval rating plummeted after the withdrawal. I remember watching on MSNBC when they dragged out every so called military expert and concern trolls who SUDDENLY remembered about the plight of Afghani women after 40 years of suffering inflicted by the Mujahadeen + Taliban at this one convenient moment. Forgetting of course who funded the Mojaheds in the first place... It was a show designed to put Biden under question because he dared to defy the pentagon establishment. In a few days, the media undid 15 years of souring opinion on the war. 




4. Republicans are the real genesis for our 21st century cancel culture, all we have to do is remember how everyone had to fall in line for the Iraq war narrative. Countless journalists got fired or taken off air for defying the narrative. All that's happened is a reversal of that tool on those who deployed it. And yes, yes, this happened many times before in american history... but there has been no bounceback in independent journalism, outside of those who call themselves that but are really funded by RT or the like (Max Blumenthal, greyzone, etc.)

[darrelljs]

I'm unsure what point you're trying to make with that.

That there is no "this follows that" relationship between Bush/Cheney and Trump...

Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.

...but there is with Fascism.

Darrell

[Cyneheard]

All calculations I make w.r.t. Trump are done to minimize the chance he gets reelected.  Therefore I hope he is not indicted.

Darrell

This isn't accurate, that him being indicted would help him get re-elected. If Trump is going to win in 2024, he needs the "Kemp-Warnock" voters - the moderate-to-conservative white suburbanites who want to vote Republican but have a limit of how much crazy and incompetence they can tolerate. That's not a group that will see Trump being indicted and go "well, obviously this is the Dems who messed up."

Trump is very likely to be the 2024 nominee either way, but the GOP Primary electorate is very good at making the most unelectable decisions possible about candidates - who's the last non-incumbent Republican who they nominated who was an average to above-average politician? A couple of House races in New York? Youngkin, who didn't have a conventional primary?

[darrelljs]

I don't think there are any swing voters left. He's polarized the entire country and the election will come down to turnout. I could be wrong .

Darrell

[Mjmd]

There is definitely a block of Republicans who will vote for a Republican normally, but a moderate democrat or none if the Republican choice is REALLY bad. I think the 2022 elections proved that, which gives me hope for America yet. The problem is the Republicans who are really good about deflecting questions about election denialism. Mind you there are also still plenty of places that are fully fine electing those people openly.

[Boro]

Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.

...but there is with Fascism.

Darrell

erm, dont see the difference between parties in terms of foreign policy in the last 20 years at least, so the above highlighted description is a very apt description of what the united states looks like from the outside.