[Spoilers] Defining the phrase "€˜Hung Like a Horse"€™: Pb & the Kuriotates

[Ilios]

That is a long trek back to safety...

[pocketbeetle]

Turn played and sent. Erm, since i've been doing alrite with this lair business, i decided to try again...

Promise not to start humping my leg ok?

WOW. I can't make that promise sorry.
That's a phenomenal outcome Kyan. If we can get him back to create a Command Post in Kwythellar, it relieves a huge amount of pressure, meaning I don't have to race to Warfare to get the free GC from there.

The only suggestion I would make, is don't forget you can join the GCommander to Vanilla Ice for +1 str, ie base str 3.
Combined with the +100% vs animals, it would mean the bear and other animals would have pretty low odds.
From the screenshot it looks like we can't join the GC to the savant, which I honestly didn't know and is a shame. Str 4 would have been useful.

And agree Ilios, it is a long trek back to safety.
I wonder if we should think about dispatching some warriors to meet them.
Maybe later.
Worse case scenario, and it looks like the GC will die: we fire him off for a Golden Age.

Sareln sent me a pissy email about the last lair opening (which I'm ignoring or may pass to the Hand).
He's probably going to go apoplectic when he sees the second one opened too.

[pocketbeetle]

I'll do a better report with screenshots next turn mate. Though they're going mighty slow. *cough* Cull *cough*.

I don't actually think it's him.
As I was saying to Bob, I think he's only caused one of the delays this week, and I really do like the fact that he's willing to ask for help.
Let's see if we can encourage Athlete to join his team, I think they'll work well together.

EDIT: Reason for my slacking is im trying to get PBEM10's map up and running for them asap so it's taking up a lot of my time.

Don't worry at all, playing the turns is more than enough.
I don't think this current excitement was expected by either of us.
I need to go comment on your map also, I like it.

Great now krill will be even more insufferable.

Owned :b:

Lol, I take it that spot gets the Krill Seal of Approval then?
Funny, I didn't think it was *that* much of an aggressive plant.

[pocketbeetle]

In an earlier screenshot I saw two Settlers queued. Do I take it one of them will become a mega-city and the other a Settlement?

Why cast Legends 5t after settling?

Okay. To answer the questions about where the second settler will go, I first need to waffle a bit about culture.
If it gets boring, skip down to the next bolded subsection.

Kuriotate worldspell: Legends

I've already explained what it does and the basic ideas on how to use it at the start of this thread.
I've played a few more games since then, and my opinions have crystallised a little bit more on when to use it.

In base Civ4, Creative is considered a strong earlygame trait.
Without it, the player is forced to expend earlygame hammers getting culture into a city, either by using a religion (requires some teching then missionaries) or buildings (Monuments, Incan terraces, Stonehenge).
FFH2 runs along similar lines, although there are a couple of additional ways to gain access to early culture, such as captured animals and low level spells. The early religions are also harder to monopolise.

With regards to the Kuriotates, I've already pointed out that while Adaptive does allow you to go Creative, I feel there are stronger available plays.
This opinion is in part based on the Kurio worldspell, which can be used as a temporary measure to expand the cultural borders in the second and possibly third cities. By the time the fourth city comes along, you should have a second method available such as a religion, and even if you don't, monuments are no longer so costly relative to development.
That's one option I have for when to use the worldspell.

The other two options are: using it midgame to balloon multiple settlement borders, possibly putting cultural pressure on Selrahc, or saving it for lategame to try and do some sort of culture bomb.
Legends isn't really viable for the latter option, a GArt on quick will give ~2k culture, while Legends gives 300. Granted it works in multiple cities, but against established culture I suspect it's effectiveness will be low. In addition, my general experience has been that saving Legends for mid/late game is a mistake. You end up realising that it's no longer of any use and are often forced to fire it off before completing Birthright Regained.
In short, the Kuriotate worldspell is better used early.


Given the above, combined with the fact that the next location I intend to settle has multiple resources strung out in the 3rd cultural ring, I think it makes sense to use Legends as a temporary measure, and let a religion do the heavy lifting afterwards.
The recently popped GProphet (and Savant) makes that decision both easier and more complicated.

On the one hand it virtually guarantees me a religion, as early religions are high on the bulbing priority list.
The only reason why Philosophy is the current selection is because I haven't researched the necessary prereqs yet. Early religions all require Mysticism and either Mining (RoK), Fishing (OO) or Hunting (FoL).

On the other, it brings up the point of Holy Cities.
If I wait until the second city is founded before bulbing (not hard), that city will be a Holy City. Typing from memory, I believe that all religions give culture to their founding city, even culture-deficient religions like RoK or AV. Culture pops on quick occur at 5, 25 and 50cp. At 2 or 3 cp/turn it wouldn't take too long to reach the 3rd expansion, although granted it would cause a slight delay in growth.
And if that city were to found two religions, well border expansions would be a trivial matter.
This is not pie in the sky thinking btw, I'm really considering doing it.

So, with that in mind, blowing a worldspell just to expand the second city's borders suddenly looks much less appealing, which makes me want to try and pump out another settler before doing so. Remember also that along with Archduke, I'm one of only two civs in this game with the Expansive trait, which gives a +100% hammer bonus to settler production. So when you see me queueing two settlers, I'm only really expending the hammer equivalent of another player building one, and that's not even counting God King.


What I intend to do:

Waffling aside, it boils down to greed.
I want a third location founded and gaining the benefits from Legends, giving me more tiles culturally claimed, more early warning about possible attacks (from Selrahc or barbs), and more resources to be improved.

Problem is, I don't have a third city location mapped out yet.
Oh I have the usual crappy second choice locations like the crabs/cows port city, but that's only a backup.
Clearly I need to explore more, through the desert-peaks gap, and to the South of the sheep/rice area.
I've stated multiple times that I look for at least three food resources when founding a Kurio city, preferably one of which is farmable. That sheep/rice spot is a possible contender if more resources appear in the fog, and at the very least has taken the backup spot from the crab/cow location, on account of being on land rather than coastal.
It’s also the area I had in mind when I suggested I would aim for settling concessions from Selrahc when chatting with him about the Priests vs Giants.

So, I need more scouting, I don’t have a decent third city location yet, but I want to get more out of the worldspell than just one set of border expansion (I’m calling the effect on Kwythellar irrelevant).
That just leaves…settlements.

Now, it’s arguably extremely weedy to waste early hammers on a non-functioning city. I would much rather use them to found a third megacity, but I’m forced to be more cautious than I would like by the game mechanics.
If there was an easy way of disbanding a city, I might be more inclined to gamble and pick a spot. But the hassle of getting rid of a placed city combined with the spacing rules means it just isn’t worth it.
Therefore, using a settlement to culturally claim the tiles of a potential third megacity site seems like an acceptable compromise.
If I do settle in that area, I’ll already have a semi decent border expansion, and will get a jump in early growth thanks to the tiles being already improved in preparation. If I don’t settle a third megacity in that area, well, it’s claimed land, resources and an early warning watchtower all in one.

Thus to answer Ilios’s question, the second settler is going to be for a settlement; to answer Sunrise’s question, the delay is to allow me to build a second settler straight after the first, and travelling time to get to the location.
Where will that be?



One of the reasons I was slightly reluctant to adopt Yellow over Red, was because in my testgame I mistakenly edited in a hill onto the forest tile 2W of the sheep, which I then founded on.
Let me tell you: with Red being 1W of Yellow, the settlement ended up just outside it’s BFC, on a hill, between peaks, with flatland all around. It was a beautiful location for a defensive settlement, culturally claiming the food resources and bumping borders with Selrahc, without seeming too threatening.
Unfortunately however, in the actual game that’s just a flatland forest, and with Yellow now being the preferred location, that plan is gone.

So where else can I put a settlement?

There’s a variety of locations, I won’t go into detail on them all.
But the priorities really become:

• Defensive: ideally on a hill, should be a short distance from Yellow dot.
  Without doubt within 6 tiles of Yellow, I’m thinking more in the region of 4, so warriors can travel quickly between them also.
  
• Somewhere that claims the sheep and rice.
  Partly because it’s a potential city location, but the rice by itself is important to me. The Deruptus Brewery as mentioned, can provide +30% raw commerce, broken down into +10% for wheat, rice and corn. Wheat I have, corn I may be able to trade from Selrahc depending on what other food resources he has at his capital, leaving the rice which I think I need to claim. I haven’t seen any other corn yet, so even if Selrahc has both rice and corn at his capital, I’m still better off claiming the rice and trading for corn.
  
• Preferably somewhere outside a potential third city BFC.
  Which begs the question of where am I going to put a third city and why? Not an easy question to answer at this stage, but in order to claim the rice and avoid huge overlap with Yellow dot, any third city in the sheep/rice area would have to be located somewhere in the region South of the sheep.
  

Taking all of that into consideration, I’d say there are 4 possible spots: 1W of the sheep, 1N of the sheep, 1NE of the sheep, and 1E of the sheep. The dungeon on the tile 2N of the sheep means it can’t be settled in the short term.

The gl tile 1NE of the sheep is 5 tiles away from Yellow, for no appreciable benefit, so that’s ruled out.
The plains tile 1W of the sheep is blocked off slightly by the peak, and could conflict with a potential third city site, so that’s gone too, leaving 1N and 1E.
Although 1E is 5 tiles away from Yellow, it is on a hill. But that brings with it its own problems, because it does look a little flat in that area. In addition, I have to consider the effect planting and using Legends there would have on Selrahc. His capital borders will now be covering the mana node and the tiles N&S of it. Even if the city is only a settlement, he’s not going to be overjoyed at my little culture play, and I’m not sure that an attempt at stealing a currently unusable mana node is worth spoiling relations at the moment.

Which just leaves 1N of the sheep.
I'm okay with it, it's not amazing, but it claims the sheep tile and will claim a lot of the tiles around the rice (although may just miss the resource tile itself? Will have to check when I next can). It also helps bring irrigation down and is a defensible distance both from Yellow and Selrach's cap.
Lastly, I’m not going to completely rule out 2N1E of the sheep, even if it does break all the rules. I like the long term potential defense offered by the river bend.


tl:dr version: second settler to be used to found a settlement 1N of the sheep, before firing Legends.

[The Reverend Doctor]

When are you going to ask Kyan to play all your turns?

What an awesome streak of luck from events/dungeons!

[pocketbeetle]

When are you going to ask Kyan to play all your turns?

Definitely tempting!

[strike]It seems to have gone quiet in this subforum.
Just checking Kyan, it's not us is it?[/strike]

Edit: Nope

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 56:

Just doing a quick catch-up for T56 to get a feel of where we are.
I’ll do demographics for the last couple of turns later.

Vanilla Ice and the Savant are currently stacked up, I was wrong about the GC, it can join with the Savant and Kyan has done so.
The screenshot is slanted to show the terrain they’ll have to return over, bear in mind the skeleton barrow to the North of the Cotton.
An Open Borders agreement with Selrahc would be useful.




Over at Kwythellar, everything’s going to plan.
Bob has finished roading the forested hill, and will have moved to put 1t of roading to the incense tile this turn. Next worker will appear for T57.
The new warrior Fluff is heading determinedly NorthEast (hidden under the incense marker).

The new GPro is named Team17, which made me laugh. ^^



In Kwythellar itself, it’s now a nice size 8, and Kyan has been clever and set the ‘Emphasise GP’ option to On, which is something I never thought of.
6 turns to the first GSci, so it should pop at the end of T61, for use T62.
Tiles worked will switch drastically to emphasise hammers next turn while building the settler (EXP).




Over at Yellow dot, we have a slight problem.
That bear den Vanilla Ice originally found is proving problematic, and two bears made their way down last turn. One attacked each of the warriors Clogz and Beefy.
Clogz had at least 90% defense (Guerilla + hill + fortify), Beefy 75% (Forest hill + fortify). As an initial guestimate I’d say both bears were in the ~25% bracket odds to win.
Beefy survived, Clogz didn’t, so RIP Clogz.

The loss of a warrior isn’t terrible, but a Combat II bear wandering around could be problematic.
Hopefully it heads away and doesn’t interfere with the settling of Yellow.
Interestingly Orthus is dead.




Demographics:

Nothing too complicated at this time, just pointing out that GNP-wise we’re kicking ass, food is fine seeing as we’ve only got one food resource hooked up, production is the next priority with Mining to be researched asap.
Best Mfg is unsurprisingly Selrahc. I wonder why.
Soldier count looks good thanks to the Savant and GC.

Note Bob is in Agrarianism. Have to say I don’t understand why he waited so long after researching the requisite tech, Calendar, only to then single revolt.
His capital is also size 7 and unhappy.

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 57:

Vanilla Ice and the Savant take a timeout on a hill.
The medic promotion means Vanilla will heal to full health next go, ready for the trek home.



Over at Kwythellar, the new worker Bobbin Threadbare completed the incense road.
The other worker, Bob, joins up with Fluff on the forest tile South of Boggy B.



In Kwythellar, tiles are rearranged to give a settler in 6 turns.
I could get it as low as 5 turns, but that requires not working the oasis…




Demographics:

Maintenance costs for units outside of cultural borders are reducing the overall GNP.
Can’t compete with Selrahc for Mfg Goods, although admittedly he has an extra size 3 city.
No-one else has a second city yet.

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 51-56 Demographics:

• Selrahc +1 pop, size 6 capital
  
• Cull + 1pop, size 4 capital
  
• Sareln is still in hammer mode, outputting 18h/turn.
  Taking out 50% God King, that’s 12 hammers from a 5 pop city, 10h from tiles worked, while supporting 5 pop so 8f/10h from tiles worked.
  We know he’s got a 5f rice tile, and probably another 3f tile, so that leaves 3 tiles unassigned, say 3 x 3h forested plh, leaves 1h unaccounted for which I’d assume was thanks to +10% mil unit production from Nationhood. Edit: This is probably wrong. Sareln got AH very early, and so I’d imagine he’s got a pigs/cows/sheep pasture by now.
  
• Selrahc hasn’t gone max hammers yet, I’d guess he was waiting to grow to size 6, expect him to switch next turn.
  

• Selrahc +1 pop at Jingle Bells (2nd city).
  
• Archduke +1 pop, size 5 capital.
  
• Bob + 1 pop, size 7 capital, at this point he’s not unhappy.
  

• Only score change is me getting +11 from researching Exploration.
  
• There we go, Selrahc’s Mfg skyrockets. Bear in mind the 1t delay in the graphs, so he switched as soon as he grew to size 6.
  Currently at 20h/turn. Take out at least 3h due to Jingle Bells (ph plant + pl wheat), and we’re still talking 17h/turn worst case scenario.
  
• Selrahc GNP: dropped to 16 after researching Philo, so suggests something without a prereq (Agri, Crafting), and continues to drop, although I have to be careful about any assumptions here. Maintenance costs could be masking the actual figure, especially considering recent pop increases.
  
• Bob is now unhappy.
  Either he made a mistake and grew too large or he’s expecting to get a second happiness resource up soon. Knowing that Bob isn’t keen on micro, I’m thinking the former is more likely.
  
• Bob adopted Agrarianism this turn.
  Possibly in response to the -2f/turn from an unhappy citizen?
  

• Kwythellar reaches size 8 for a score increase.
  
• Strangely, the Mfg Goods graph shows Selrahc’s hammer output increasing a small amount more, yet the Rival best has remained unchanged at 20 for multiple turns.
  I’m not sure, but I think that may be him trying to push a warrior/scout out of Jingle Bells against the -20% mil unit penalty from Pacifism.
  I can’t think of any other reason, it’s very unlikely to be Archduke, even taking into account he has Mysticism and is possibly running God King.
  

• Sareln gained a tech
  
• Cull +1 pop, size 5 capital.
  

Cull and Selrahc gained a tech, so let’s recap research.


Techs:

Cull:
Last turn that he researched a tech: T39 -> Assigned Mining.
Next turn he researched a tech: T47
Therefore gap = 8 turns
GNP during period: 13, ie 11 research.
8 turns x 11 = 88b.
Either Exploration or Anc Chants, can’t tell.

[b]Cull:[/b]
Last turn that he researched a tech: T47 -> Exp or Anc Chants.
Next turn he researched a tech: T55
Therefore gap = 8 turns
GNP during period: 16, ie 14 research.
8 turns x 14 = 112b.

Assume it’s a level 2 tech and he’s been getting a prereq bonus, that leaves…nothing?
Hmm, we appear to have a problem.
I know he’s got: Crafting, Mining, Agri + either Exp or Anc Chants.

He could therefore have researched: Calendar, AH, Hunting, Fishing, Cartography, Masonry, Archery, Bronze Working, Education or Mysticism.
It’s a long list, the cheapest being Masonry at 150b… and while I don’t rate Cull massively, I don’t think he’s that bad. Also, why research Anc Chants/ Exploration in that case? He doesn’t really need the roads atm.
[strike]So I think we’re going to have to assume an event here. Possibly the same Oghma one that gave me +40 beakers towards Calendar.
Worst case scenario: Cull gained Fishing and is aiming to build the Heron Throne asap.
Need to do some digging here.[/strike]
Just took another look.
Unlike Selrahc who gained 11 points, ie definitely a tech, Cull gained 16 points.
That would suggest a tech + pop increase, but he’s still at size 5 with no second city.
Which got me thinking about other reasons for score increases…

Third city border expansions occur at 50cp. Cull is in the Religion civic which gives +10% culture, so he’s outputting 2.2 cp/turn.
50/2.2 = 22.7 = 23 turns.
Factor in the 14 turn Stasis delay, = 37 turns.
Then include the 20 turn delay for culture points to be counted in the score and you get T57. It’s not exact, but allowing for rounding errors it seems reasonable.
So I’m saying it’s not a tech, but cultural score, and I expect Archduke, Sareln, myself and Bob to gain similar amounts in three turns or so.

Cull is doing okay. He got lucky with Agri from a hut early on, which he obviously considered gave him enough food to allow him to focus on production via Mining.
But he now needs to work on his GNP, or he’s going to be left trailing with no religion or advanced units.

Sareln:
Last turn that he researched a tech: T31 -> Assigned AH
Next turn he researched a tech: T47
Therefore gap = 16 turns
GNP during period: 15-17 ie research 13-15.
16 turns x 14 = 224b

[b]Sareln:[/b]
Last turn that he researched a tech: T47 -> Assigned Mysticism
Next turn he researched a tech: T54
Therefore gap = 7 turns
GNP during period: 14 ie research 12.
7 turns x 12 = 84b

Allowing for a small overflow, it’s clearly the level 1 tech Exploration at 85b.
Sareln has: Agri, AH, Anc Chants, Mysticism, Exploration.

Sareln is playing a reasonably solid game, he got food up first via Agri and AH, then improved GNP via Mysticism and possibly a SC/Sci spec soon.
I’m surprised he’s not now going Crafting/Mining for production however.
He 100% does not need the roads from Exploration, he’s virtually in the middle of a forest, so it must be as a prereq for something else.
Fishing is a no, Cartography is a possible, but Hunting makes a lot more sense both for the Hunter unit and as a prereq for the FoL religion.

Archduke:
Last turn that he researched a tech: T23 -> Assigned Exploration or Ancient Chants.
Next turn he researched a tech: T44

Therefore gap = 21 turns
GNP during period: ~12 ie research ~10.
21 turns x 10 = 210b

Slight complication with this one, as 210b is close to both Mysticism (215b) and AH (193b).
I’ve got him down for 3 possible paths:

However, because we know that when he researched the first tech he carried over a 5b overflow (10 turns of 9 research = 90 – 85 = 5) it’s Mysticism.

So Archduke: Anc Chants -> Mysticism.
Expecting the next tech to be Calendar, AH or Exploration, in order of likelihood, with a couple of outside possibilities such as Education (cottages).

Archduke:

Not much to be said about Archduke, he’s clearly struggling at the bottom of the pile.
He got hit with two awful pop decreases, one from Bob, one from an event, and his GNP has consistently been the worst of us all.

Archduke has: Agri, Anc Chants, Mysticism.

[b]Bob: [/b]
Last turn that he researched a tech: T37 -> Assigned Edit: Calendar [strike]Anc Chants or Crafting[/strike]
Next turn he researched a tech: T46
Therefore gap = 9 turns
GNP during period: 16-17 ie research 14-15.
9 turns x 14.5 = 130b
At 129b, Crafting is a nice match.
There are only two reasons to take Crafting, either Bob is heading for Mining or he has wines in his BFC.

Bob:

Bob has: Agri, Calendar, Exploration, Crafting.
As far as I’m concerned, if Bob suddenly gains +1 happy then he’s got wines around his capital.


Selrahc:

Last turn that he researched a tech: T49 -> Assigned Philo
Next turn he researched a tech: T56
Therefore gap = 7 turns
GNP during period: 16-17 ie research 12-13.
9 turns x 12.5 = 87b


Similar to Sareln, there’s only one 85b tech that Selrahc doesn’t have, so it has to be Agri.
He’s also got an unknown tech from a hut, which I’d hoped might be Agri or Crafting.
Obviously it’s not Agri, but could still be: Fishing, Hunting, [strike]Cartography,[/strike] Crafting, or Education.
It’s not Carto as there’s no option for OB in the trade window, so unless it’s Fishing or Crafting, Selrahc has gained a serious 300b+ tech from that hut.

Selrahc has: Agri, Exploration, Anc Chants, Mysticism, Philo + 1 unknown.


Overall:

I’ve got Agri, Calendar, Exploration, Anc Chants, Mysticism + a GPro.

• 6 techs: Selrahc
  
• 5 techs: Sareln, me
  
• 4 techs: Archduke, Cull, Bob
  

Miscellaneous comments on the game so far:

Sareln is screwed for space, you can see Cull’s borders on the right:




Also I’m going to have that chat with Selrahc today.
I don’t have Cartography yet, which makes things bloody difficult, but I’ve already put him off two weeks, anymore is pushing it imo.

I’d estimate that if he started building the Priests as soon as he researched Philo (T49), so T50, then he could get them as early as:
White Hand = 268h
T50-51: ~8h/t
T52-57: 15h/t
Total = 106h

(268 – 106) /15 = 10.8 = 11 turns.

I’m working on estimates here, I’ve still not managed to pin down Selrahc’s production/food numbers again.
But those above are reasonable, and if Selrahc stays at a rate of 15h/turn in his capital Silent Night, then he could have the Priests built at the end of T68.

That’s pretty much the worst case, and interestingly, to get those figures I had to assume that he’s -not- running a Sci spec…which doesn’t make a lot of sense.
Why revolt to Pacifism and build military units if you’re not going to run a scientist asap?
But given the fact that Selrahc has only just researched Agri, there’s no way he has an improved food resource around his capital.
And the only way to get up to 20+h/turn Mfg Goods is to have shedload of hammers being worked in the capital. (My guess earlier in this post of 17h/t is just too high, not doable without serious starvation.)

So either my figures are still wrong on Selrahc (entirely possible) or he really really wants those Priests.

[pocketbeetle]

Diplo:

[(6:00:12 PM) Selrahc: Hey
(6:00:27 PM) pocketbeetle: Hey Selrahc, how are you?
<snip>
(6:02:56 PM) pocketbeetle: Agreed
(6:03:03 PM) pocketbeetle: Well, first off, can I just say thanks for not sending me an angry email about the lair opening stunt. Sareln was less happy, and made himself heard. :rolleyes:
(6:03:40 PM) Selrahc: I'd probably have been a bit more annoyed if a bunch of high level barbs had spawned
(6:03:54 PM) Selrahc: As it is, I'm fine with you getting some loot
(6:04:27 PM) Selrahc: Pretty nice loot too
(6:04:37 PM) Selrahc: If you can get it back to base
(6:04:44 PM) pocketbeetle: Yeah. It was a lucky outcome. <snip>
(6:05:01 PM) pocketbeetle: But anyway, it worked out okay
(6:05:43 PM) Selrahc: I've been dealing with Orthus in the last few turns.. all my explorers died 3 turns back
(6:06:06 PM) pocketbeetle: Oh really? That's news, I was intending to start fishing about Orthus. Did you get his axe?
(6:06:24 PM) Selrahc: Yep. He went down really easy
(6:06:28 PM) pocketbeetle: Good job
(6:06:29 PM) pocketbeetle: K, I stated that in my thread at the start of this game that I intended to be blunt in diplomacy…so I might as well start as I mean to go on.
(6:06:36 PM) pocketbeetle: Selrahc, are you going for a Priest of Winter rush?
(6:06:40 PM) Selrahc: Yes
(6:06:53 PM) Selrahc: That's basically what I wanted to talk to you about
(6:06:56 PM) pocketbeetle: Thanks for being honest.
(6:07:00 PM) pocketbeetle: But the big question now is, am I the target?
(6:07:19 PM) Selrahc: No.
(6:07:24 PM) Selrahc: Sareln is.
(6:07:35 PM) Selrahc: Mainly due to how close our civs are
(6:07:37 PM) pocketbeetle: Glad to hear it
I’d hoped that would be the answer, especially when I found out that you’d settled towards Sareln, but I had to be sure.
(6:07:58 PM) pocketbeetle: Just to be clear: I think you’ve already guessed I pay some attention to the demographics.
(6:08:07 PM) Selrahc: So you don't have any problems with that?
(6:08:13 PM) Selrahc: Yeah.
(6:08:15 PM) pocketbeetle: When we started this PBEM, I stated that I thought you and Bob would probably be among the top players, and so when I found myself adjacent to you, I started paying a lot of attention to your graphs.
(6:08:30 PM) pocketbeetle: I know you beelined Philosophy and got it on T49 along with a hut tech (still haven’t figured out what that was).
(6:08:37 PM) pocketbeetle: I know you settled your second city on T38
(6:08:41 PM) pocketbeetle: In short, I’ve been keeping an eagle eye on you.
(6:08:54 PM) pocketbeetle: So when I realised you were probably going for the Priests, I started worrying, and had to figure out what to do.
(6:09:00 PM) pocketbeetle: Care to guess my solution?
(6:09:29 PM) Selrahc: Hmm...
(6:09:39 PM) Selrahc: Not sure
(6:09:49 PM) pocketbeetle: I’ll give you a hint, in a couple of turns I’ll finish researching Cartography.
(6:10:03 PM) Selrahc: Ah. Larry, Curly and Moe
(6:10:10 PM) Selrahc: That'd work
(6:10:21 PM) pocketbeetle: Exactly
I’ve done the numbers, I think you’re about halfway through the White Hand ritual, and taking into account travelling time, I’m pretty certain I’d be able to get the Hill Giants in time, making it pretty much a stalemate.
(6:10:36 PM) pocketbeetle: Now that you’ve told me you’re not heading for me, I feel a bit more relaxed, but I’ll still be building them. It makes no sense to research something like Cartography and not take the first-past-the-post bonus.
(6:11:06 PM) pocketbeetle: So what exactly were you intending to talk to me about regarding the Priests then?
(6:11:43 PM) Selrahc: I was pretty sure you'd be able to see them coming.
(6:12:04 PM) Selrahc: So I was hoping to ask you not to give Sareln prior warning.
(6:12:25 PM) Selrahc: Because I'm pretty sure he isn't paying nearly as close attention to the demographics
(6:12:34 PM) pocketbeetle: Interesting
(6:12:43 PM) pocketbeetle: And I'd agree, I don't think he is either
(6:13:02 PM) pocketbeetle: Is that the main interest?
(6:13:12 PM) pocketbeetle: I thought you’d also be looking to secure your borders, eliminate the chance of getting involved in a two front war, that sort of thing?
(6:13:51 PM) Selrahc: Well I was hoping to bring the discussion that way, yeah.
(6:14:27 PM) pocketbeetle: Okay…
(6:14:31 PM) pocketbeetle: Well I’ll be honest with you.
(6:14:37 PM) pocketbeetle: I think you and I have started off really well, and I would much prefer to deal with you than Sareln.
(6:14:51 PM) pocketbeetle: But you have to see it from my point of view here
(6:15:03 PM) pocketbeetle: If you take out Sareln, (and it’s very likely, those Priests are hugely powerful), you’d be gaining a ton of land to the East, plus gaining your hammer investment back in cities. PoW ritual = 290ish hammer, settler = 150 hammers, you’d only have to capture two cities to be *making* hammers.
(6:15:21 PM) pocketbeetle: In short, you’d have the best of both worlds: eliminating one neighbour while the other spends a huge amount of production on a pretty useless ritual that costs more hammers (330), with no return on investment.
I’m afraid the greed factor comes into play here. What am I getting out of it?
What are you bringing to the table?
(6:16:29 PM) pocketbeetle: (Apart from the obvious, a long term ally)
(6:16:32 PM) Selrahc: At the moment there isn't too much to trade in terms of land, but if you're getting cartography in a few turns that opens up some possibilities
(6:16:38 PM) pocketbeetle: Which is no small thing in itself
(6:16:45 PM) pocketbeetle: true
(6:17:46 PM) Selrahc: I can give you my maps, which should show you the location of the civs you haven't met yet.
(6:18:25 PM) Selrahc: And we could talk about sites that you would want to settle in the future.
(6:18:37 PM) Selrahc: I've seen some pretty good land to the west.
(6:19:02 PM) pocketbeetle: Sounds interesting yeah
Don't get caught up thinking there's nothing to deal with in a no tech trading game
(6:19:08 PM) pocketbeetle: there’s lots of things we can deal with
(6:19:11 PM) pocketbeetle: City gifts, Great People to build unique buildings, Trade, Gold, Settling rights, Tech/Wonder exclusivity agreements etc.
(6:19:18 PM) pocketbeetle: I'll level with you though
(6:19:33 PM) pocketbeetle: What I'm most interested in is settling rights
(6:19:48 PM) Selrahc: Getting the big cities in good places?
(6:20:01 PM) pocketbeetle: I wish.
Truth is, Darrell has been a little stingy with my land
(6:20:20 PM) pocketbeetle: And I'm looking at what may happen, and noticing that you'd be getting a ton of land to your East
(6:20:45 PM) pocketbeetle: What happened to North Wind btw?
(6:20:56 PM) Selrahc: Scorpion clan goblin
(6:20:57 PM) pocketbeetle: I've been expecting him to show up any time now
(6:21:00 PM) pocketbeetle: really?
(6:21:03 PM) pocketbeetle: ouch
(6:21:05 PM) Selrahc: Yeah.
(6:21:29 PM) pocketbeetle: Okay, well to be clear, I'm around 18 tiles East of you. And I'm struggling to find city locations
(6:21:51 PM) pocketbeetle: I'd like to ask for the land to the West of your capital.
(6:21:55 PM) Selrahc: I've seen at least one location I thought could be good for kuriotates
(6:22:17 PM) Selrahc: Hmm...
(6:22:37 PM) pocketbeetle: And to be clear, before you say no outright, this is not some audacious landgrab
(6:22:39 PM) Selrahc: And that would be the basis of stable long term borders?
(6:23:24 PM) pocketbeetle: That would. I think you know enough to know about the Kuriotates to know we don't need that much land due to limited cities. The fact I'm struggling to even find those sites should give you an idea
(6:23:48 PM) Selrahc: Yeah.
(6:23:50 PM) pocketbeetle: I would also be willing to trade you maps as soon as I get Carto, on the basis we work soemthing out, so you could be sure I'm not outright lying
(6:24:19 PM) Selrahc: Sounds good.
(6:25:03 PM) Selrahc: I'd quite like to have 1 city west of my capital, but I'm pretty much willing to cede the rest of the land.
(6:25:45 PM) Selrahc: It's not a super site, more for a buffer in case things break down later(which they hopefully wouldn't)
(6:26:13 PM) Selrahc: The only resource is sheep.
(6:26:20 PM) pocketbeetle: I understand, but is that site around the sheep tile? Because that's what I'm really interested in?
(6:26:22 PM) pocketbeetle: heh
(6:26:29 PM) Selrahc: Ah...
(6:26:32 PM) pocketbeetle: Let me explain a bit more
(6:26:48 PM) pocketbeetle: Is that site you're thinking about the sheep/wheat/deer location on the river?
(6:26:56 PM) pocketbeetle: (The nice Kuriotate spot)
(6:27:11 PM) Selrahc: Ah, no. Different sheep.
(6:27:14 PM) Selrahc: I think.
(6:27:33 PM) Selrahc: Let me just check a screenshot
(6:27:42 PM) pocketbeetle: Nono. There's two sheep. One in the above site, the other is south of the dungeon close to the river
(6:28:02 PM) pocketbeetle: The sheep/wheat/deer site, I 'll have a settler reaching it in around 6 turns
(6:28:12 PM) Selrahc: Oh, yeah, the dungeon river one is what I was talking about
(6:28:33 PM) pocketbeetle: What I'm hoping to secure here, is the other sheep. I think I may have to found my third city around there. I really am lacking other options
(6:29:10 PM) pocketbeetle: I don't want to get into a settling race, because although I will probably win it (EXP), it'll create bad feeling
(6:29:24 PM) Selrahc: No, this is good.
(6:29:41 PM) Selrahc: If you need to put one of your super cities there then I'll cede the site.
(6:29:43 PM) Selrahc: Is that fair?
(6:31:10 PM) Selrahc: There is a furs/sheep/whales/deer site somewhere in the north that I thought would look promising for you.
(6:31:20 PM) pocketbeetle: That's very fair, and I probably will need to. Full disclosure: my current working plan is to found a settlement not too far away and use my worldspell to bring it under cultural control
(6:31:24 PM) pocketbeetle: In the end, you’re going to be getting a shedload of land to your East, including Letum Frigus and a strong capital site. I’m hoping that’s enough
(6:32:01 PM) pocketbeetle: That will clash with the other site. Also I'm not looking for coastal sites preferably. Land > sea obviously
(6:32:13 PM) Selrahc: Right. Fair enough.
(6:32:29 PM) Selrahc: I'm happy with the deal as it currently stands then.
(6:32:52 PM) Selrahc: If you need that site for your big three then it's obviously a lot more important to you than it is to me
(6:33:28 PM) Selrahc: And none of the other land to my west was planned for settling in any realistic timeframe.
(6:33:48 PM) pocketbeetle: That's great
(6:33:53 PM) pocketbeetle: Okay, so to be clear: I don’t warn Sareln, I don’t help in any way (I’d even be willing to help you if necessary). In return I get settlign rights to the West of your capital, specifically the sheep site, but you will discuss any sites you settle West of your cap in the short/midterm?
(6:34:11 PM) Selrahc: Yes, that sounds like a deal.
(6:34:37 PM) pocketbeetle: Additional stuff: we'll trade maps and you get to call it off in the extreme case that I've completely misled you and I have tons of room
(6:35:01 PM) pocketbeetle: Would you be interested in getting trading going soon/Open Borders? Might as well make use of Cartography
(6:35:18 PM) Selrahc: No point in not doing so really.
(6:36:01 PM) Selrahc: We'll need to get a trade route connected before it really means anything though
(6:36:41 PM) pocketbeetle: True, it shouldn't take too long though, firing off my worldspell will make it a lot easier, meaning workers don't have to worry
(6:37:07 PM) pocketbeetle: But thankyou Selrahc, I'm glad we could work something out
(6:37:15 PM) pocketbeetle: And goodluck with the conquest ^^
(6:37:15 PM) Selrahc: Me too.
(6:37:24 PM) Selrahc: Yeah, kind of all riding on that.
(6:37:40 PM) Selrahc: By the way, feel free to take Kyan on as a full dedicated lurker now.
(6:38:26 PM) pocketbeetle: Ahh, were you trying to talk to me about that before I left?
(6:38:34 PM) Selrahc: Yeah.
(6:38:43 PM) pocketbeetle: lol. Doh!
(6:38:43 PM) Selrahc: But I think it was more productive at this point.
(6:38:49 PM) pocketbeetle: true
(6:39:13 PM) pocketbeetle: To celebrate our agreement, here's a freebie also. Something I posted earlier in my thread
(6:39:17 PM) pocketbeetle: <snip>Sareln tech info:<snip>
(6:39:30 PM) pocketbeetle: Might help
(6:40:00 PM) Selrahc: Ah, thank you. That is useful
(6:40:09 PM) pocketbeetle: Cya
(6:40:24 PM) Selrahc: Yeah, thanks!

Summary:

• I don't warn Sareln about Priests.
  
• I don't help Sareln vs Selrahc militarily.
  
• Selrahc gives me settling rights to the West of his cap.
  
• We trade maps when Cartography comes in, OB also.
  
• Selrahc's scout heading towards me died.
  
• Selrahc killed Orthus and has his axe. Str 8 Priests
  

Almost according to plan, with the exception of one really stupid mistake by me.
I didn't get a NAP, I only agreed to not help Sareln/attack Selrahc.

That's my noobness coming into play unfortunately.
So technically Selrahc could wipe Sareln out then send those combat hardened Priests around to me to wipe out any cities settled close to his capital without breaking any agreements.
That may be what he was thinking when he agreed to the above.

Entirely possible I'm being paranoid, but being paranoid has worked out well so far.
Not a huge problem, it just means I can't slack on defense.
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[/FONT]Other Misc Diplo:[FONT=&quot]
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Sent:

Saturday, July 24, 2010 7:00:48 PM

Thanks for that, I'd been puzzling about the large production spike on Sareln's graph.
Glad to know it is for barb defence rather than something more.. sinister.
I've given Bob some NESW directions for the rest of the civilizations, so he'll probably be joining the council of nations as soon as he can spare some explorers.
The entire southland is looking quite barbarian friendly too. Lizards and Skeletons running around all over the place.
I'm glad I've gotten a relatively barbarian free start.

Selrahc replying to me saying that Sareln had a lot of barbs around his capital, several weeks old now.

Subject: Dungeon & Other Business

Congratulations on your Savant. I honestly don't know how useful
he'll be to you religion wise. That was a rather strong liberty you
took with both Selrahc and my safety wrt. to super-barbs. I'm glad it
was a bonus instead of a monster, but I have enough barbarian troubles
as it is without you adding to them .

In other business, have you scouted the site for your 3 super-cities
yet, or would you like help locating them? Has Selrahc placed any
cities towards you yet?

-Sareln-

Sareln expressing his unhappiness while I was away. "Dungeon and other business".

Subject: RE: Dungeon & Other Business

Dear Queen Sareln,

I'm afraid his Lordship is again out of communication.
I will however, be happy to pass on any message you wish to leave.

M. Keown, Hand to the Kuriotates

M Keown's polite reply.

Subject: RE^2: Dungeon & Other Business

The Svartalfar are appalled at the reckless behavior of Kuriotate
scouts upon our borders. That is all.

Oh dear, apparently that didn't go down well.

Now that we have an agreement in place with the Illians, let's see if we can work together for mutual happiness and fulfilment.

Subject: RE^3: Dungeon & Other Business

Dear Queen Sareln,

That seems like a very short message, are you sure you don't want to lengthen it at all?
I assure you that I am highly trained with a great knack for memorising all types of missives!

M. Keown, Hand to the Kuriotates

You can't say he's not polite and helpful!