American Politics Discussion Thread

[superdeath]

They literally only recognized china as the "true/only" ect china because otherwise economic relations would have suffered.

If this was pre-like 1970? Sure, taiwan could have been integrated back into china.. However, they are their own country now and china cannot take it by force easily (and really shouldnt if it wants to avoid ww3)

[Charr Babies]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_China

 The One China policy refers to a United States policy of strategic ambiguity regarding Taiwan.[1] In a 1972 joint communiqué with the PRC, the United States "acknowledges that all Chinese on either side of the Taiwan Strait maintain there is but one China and that Taiwan is a part of China" and "does not challenge that position."[2] It reaffirms the U.S. interest in a peaceful settlement of the Taiwan question.[3] The United States has formal relations with the PRC, recognizes the PRC as the sole legal government of China, and simultaneously maintains its unofficial relations with Taiwan while not recognising China's sovereignty over Taiwan.

[Charr Babies]

They literally only recognized china as the "true/only" ect china because otherwise economic relations would have suffered.

So what you are saying is the US cannot be trusted?

If this was pre-like 1970? Sure, taiwan could have been integrated back into china.. However, they are their own country now and china cannot take it by force easily (and really shouldnt if it wants to avoid ww3)

When did Taiwan declare formal independence? The moment that happens is the moment China will force reunification. And I would guess with ease. The US is only using Taiwan as a geopolitical pawn to destabilize China. I highly doubt the US would risk big losses to be in direct war with China. There will be no winners, with or without nukes. Both sides will lose big even if they can somehow claim a win.

[Mjmd]

Declaring formal independence would be rather foolish of them after that policy was put in place without them being involved, but they certainly didn't consider themselves part of China before that. They don't seem to be leaping with open arms into wanting Beijing to rule them. So again let them decide. Why does what the US or China think matter? At the moment they seem content with the status quo. I'm sure they would be thrilled if China told them they could decide themselves.

[Cyneheard]

Declaring formal independence would be rather foolish of them after that policy was put in place without them being involved, but they certainly didn't consider themselves part of China before that. They don't seem to be leaping with open arms into wanting Beijing to rule them. So again let them decide. Why does what the US or China think matter? At the moment they seem content with the status quo. I'm sure they would be thrilled if China told them they could decide themselves.

The stumbling block here is China. China would rather Taiwan officially claim that Taiwan is the rightful government of all of China, instead of Taiwan saying the de facto true fact that they're an independent state with no territorial ambitions.

If China decided that Taiwan could be officially independent, the US would be thrilled to go along.

And frankly if China wants to invade Taiwan, they'll learn very quickly just how hard naval invasions are. Especially since it won't be a surprise attack - you can't hide a million+ man invasion force and the ships necessary to move it from modern surveillance.

[Charr Babies]

Wishful thinking. I am not sure if the world would be more peaceful or in total chaos if every local group can just declare independence. The Falkland Islands, Hawaii, Catalan and Okinawa, and even Quebec (LoL), just to name a few, would be happy clams. WORLD PEACE at last! Or, total disorder? Imagine if every province wants to breakaway from Canada, and every city wants to break away from their provinces.

No war is easy. Vietnam, North Korea showed how they can kick ass with stick and stones. All the power gesturing from the west will not stop what is inevitable. Reunification will happen, according to China.

[Mjmd]

So in a democratic country if you don't like how things are you can try to persuade people to vote. That is how things should be changed. You shouldn't leave just because you aren't getting your way right this second. You are correct that way lies madness.

What I'm saying is for disputed territories that could cause conflict they should be able to decide. For places that are operating autonomously they definitely shouldn't be forced into joining a country unless they want to.

[superdeath]

Wishful thinking. I am not sure if the world would be more peaceful or in total chaos if every local group can just declare independence. The Falkland Islands, Hawaii, Catalan and Okinawa, and even Quebec (LoL), just to name a few, would be happy clams. WORLD PEACE at last! Or, total disorder? Imagine if every province wants to breakaway from Canada, and every city wants to break away from their provinces.

No war is easy. Vietnam, North Korea showed how they can kick ass with stick and stones. All the power gesturing from the west will not stop what is inevitable. Reunification will happen, according to China.

Kinda a big difference between a democratic nation that has been separated from the mainland for over 74 years, and something like Hawaii... but you do you.

They literally only recognized china as the "true/only" ect china because otherwise economic relations would have suffered.

So what you are saying is the US cannot be trusted?

If this was pre-like 1970? Sure, taiwan could have been integrated back into china.. However, they are their own country now and china cannot take it by force easily (and really shouldnt if it wants to avoid ww3)

When did Taiwan declare formal independence? The moment that happens is the moment China will force reunification. And I would guess with ease. The US is only using Taiwan as a geopolitical pawn to destabilize China. I highly doubt the US would risk big losses to be in direct war with China. There will be no winners, with or without nukes. Both sides will lose big even if they can somehow claim a win.

Cannot be trusted? Lol.

They are their own country in practically every other way. They conduct trade deals with other countries and have the most high-tech semi-conductor chips in the world. The US and others have a very good reason to stop China from taking control of those semi-conductor facilities besides stopping China from taking over yet another peaceful neighbor. Also, China would have a very hard time invading Taiwan in any conventional war. As stated by others, amphibious invasions are a bitch. China is not the US, plus Taiwan has 2? actual landing areas for a potential invasion that would be visible way before they could launch it. If China decided to just bombard Taiwan they would risk damaging the tech that is one of the main prizes of a reunification.

China is falling apart from the inside bit by bit. When its corrupt leader is up for re-election (2028?) he will want to have made plans to attack and capture Taiwan to try and secure that 4th term.

You are right about one thing though. In a war between US and China, both sides will lose big. However, China would still lose. Im happy to continue talking about the logistics and other reasons why a China vs Taiwan(and US/allies) is just a really bad idea for them if you wish though!

I do apologize if i came across as an ass. I just uh, know a decent amount about this kinda subject.

[Charr Babies]

Im happy to continue talking about the logistics and other reasons why a China vs Taiwan(and US/allies) is just a really bad idea for them if you wish though!

I do apologize if i came across as an ass. I just uh, know a decent amount about this kinda subject.

No, that's quite alright. I know how much you know from the few sentences in your reply

I was only here because I was curious Boro had the nerve to post such a comment in this thread and wanted to make sure I didn't misinterpret it. Note how quickly it turned into a China bashing thread. Reminds me of this clip from Blazing Saddles




LoL, this is only the third time I peek in the subforum. I am actually surprised the interaction seems civil, so far. I have already said too much. I did promise myself not to talk geopolitics unless they also have multilingual sources. 

Thanks for playing

[darrelljs]

I am actually surprised the interaction seems civil, so far.

It was started with the thesis that RB was one of the rare corners of The Internet where civil discourse on complicated issues was possible. The experiment has been inconclusive .

Re: China and Taiwan, the One China policy had ended up a purely face saving move that allows China and the US (and to a lesser extent others) to have normal diplomatic relations and avoid the inconvenient reality that Taiwan is an independent country whose security is guaranteed by the US. It felt like a path to peaceful reunification was being walked until China broke the "one country, two systems" agreement in Hong Kong with the National Security Law. Now it's just a mess.

Darrell