American Politics Discussion Thread

[greenline]

Didn't see your most recent post. None of those rises to trying to overthrow a democracy, but yes those are all bad things. I find two most common logical fallacies in politics to be Tu Quo Que and Equality. IE you too do bad things. And just ignoring that one thing is worst than the other.

The death toll of Trump's attempt to 'overthrow democracy' is 1: one of his supporters. The main result has been the mass arrests of Trump supporters for taking part, along with Trump himself now being indicted. How many people has the illicit funding of Latin American terror groups killed by now? I'm sure it would include even Americans at this point.

The victims of FDR's camps lost five years of their life and work without compensation. That seems far more heinous to me than Congress being scared for a day. Why pay special consideration for trying to overthrow a democracy that isn't even a democracy?

[Mjmd]

It is a democracy. Its just not a direct democracy.

I like how unlike T-Hawk you don't even try to deny he was trying to overthrow our Democracy, you actively are just fine with it.

[greenline]

It is a curious case where the methods matter more than the goals.

Trump seemed to think he was cheated out of a win, but didn't respond in a way that would actively be dangerous - by gathering the military or rounding up political enemies to make a point. Instead, he tried to convinced his subordinates to look for a loophole that would make him continue to be president, which led to nothing beyond those subordinates being arrested. It does not make him look good, but it was not hurting people in the way that the opposition is want to do. If one looks for similarities to authoritarian and totalitarian statues like Russia and China, far more similarities reside with the party pushing for state control of the media and the economy, rather than the guy complaining about election fraud.

[superdeath]

Didn't see your most recent post. None of those rises to trying to overthrow a democracy, but yes those are all bad things. I find two most common logical fallacies in politics to be Tu Quo Que and Equality. IE you too do bad things. And just ignoring that one thing is worst than the other.

The death toll of Trump's attempt to 'overthrow democracy' is 1: one of his supporters. The main result has been the mass arrests of Trump supporters for taking part, along with Trump himself now being indicted. How many people has the illicit funding of Latin American terror groups killed by now? I'm sure it would include even Americans at this point.

The victims of FDR's camps lost five years of their life and work without compensation. That seems far more heinous to me than Congress being scared for a day. Why pay special consideration for trying to overthrow a democracy that isn't even a democracy?

While human deaths suck, they happen. Just because Trumps' "attempt to overthrow democracy" didnt go as planned, and got only 1 death doesnt mean it isnt worse than some drug related deaths in latin america.

We can all agree that FDR's Japanese internment camps were horrible. I dont believe anyone is going to fight you (or anyone) on that issue. But sweeping Trumps alleged crime under the rug or saying its not worse than (or at the VERY least) had the potential to be far worse than any of those you listed... is laughable.

A very quick list off the top of my head of the worst things that the USA has done/had done under presidents orders/ect:

1. The near extinction level wiping of Native Americans.
2. Slavery.
3. The potential that Trumps "alleged" overthrow attempt had.
4. Japanese internment camps.
5. Woodrow Wilson's policies.
6. George W. Bush's War on Terror.
7. Nixon's War on Drugs.
8. Reagan's financial policies.
9. Watergate.
10. Trumps actual overthrow attempt.

[Mjmd]

MANY of his subordinates also told him he had lost and there was 0 proof. He did not think he was cheated out of a win. There is evidence he admitted he lost on a couple occasions. You can also prove the mens rae (mental state) a couple other ways. If he TRULY believed it, he would have for instance used the funds he fund raised for that purpose at the time. Instead of hoarding them and using them against political opponents / his own legal defense.

Look at the 2000 election. There are many democrats who think that election was stolen. A very small amount of votes, in 1 state, and a case that was ruled on by Republican judges. Gore IMMEDIATELY conceded after supreme court ruling. The transfer of power is more important than 1 man or 1 election. 1824 Andrew Jackson got screwed out of a electoral and popular vote win by overall much more moral John Quincy Adams. Instead of taking the path of most populist generals screwed over by the political elite, he accepted it. Mad as hell. Started a new political party, but he accepted it. When a party is losing the moral high ground to Andrew Jackson, something is wrong with that party.

[greenline]

You realize the transfer of power still occurred?

[Mjmd]

You realize the transfer of power still occurred?

Thank God for some Republicans who did the right thing.

That is the thing with this right. We know there were multiple Republicans at many levels who did the right thing. The scary thing is a lot of these Republicans were forced out in 2022. Even Republicans who are happy to suppress votes via legal means, didn't go as far as to overthrow the results once they were cast.

[Mjmd]

BTW that is why there is a legal difference between attempted murder and actual murder. Its not like attempted overthrowing of a democracy shouldn't be a crime just because he didn't succeed.

[greenline]

I mean, what do you really think would have happened if those Republicans didn't do "the right thing"?

The military and the secret service people clearly were keen to take orders from someone who was not the president, during the events of January 6th. Or imagine if Trump's very silly scheme went through, what would that mean? Another 4 years of gridlock in congress? Lol.

I think a legal definition of a coup should include a shift in total military command *somewhere* in there, otherwise it is a joke.

[Dreylin]

Once you’ve stolen the Presidency, a couple of Senate and House seats should be easy, right?