American Politics Discussion Thread

[Mjmd]

Trump tried to overthrow the election. It DOES NOT MATTER. None of it does. In a Democracy this accepting the unacceptable. Lets just make that clear. There are plenty of other immigration jerks you can pick from.

1) this is true. Its actually a detriment to the countries they come from. And a benefit to the country they are going to. However, they are choosing to leave. Unless your Native American, your ancestors chose to leave their home for the US. Who are you to deny that to others?
2) Oh the Irish were way worse law and order wise than the current batch. And yet they now assimilated and we celebrate St Patricks day.
3) we can solve these issues. Its not like affordable housing couldn't be built. We could improve our systems. Economies are not stuck sizes, they can grow and prosper. Being protectionist is not the way to do this however.

Immigration was how his country was made. And almost without fail most of the waves faced anti immigration and racist sentiment. Who are we living in the off of their hard work and suffering to impose suffering on those wanting a better life? And it even makes sense from a human capital perspective!

BTW if you want some more native births some family leave, medical care, and child care would be real nice for that.

[greenline]

I'm still going to vote for the man if he is on the ballot, and millions of Americans share my view. I'm sorry that you are so aggrieved that you see millions of Americans as holding completely unacceptable views - it is opinions like yours that fuel civil war and tyranny. Let us both hope it does not come to that.

Unless your Native American, your ancestors chose to leave their home for the US. Who are you to deny that to others?

Why would I or anyone else need permission to have never moved to deny immigration? Immigration means immigrants benefit at my and other's expense. QED. So, my opinion is no immigration.

(Fun fact: Native Americans are a heavily pro Trump demographic for his stance on immigration. But if you ask our genius political scientists, the role of Native Americans in a democracy is to eat shit because immigration is the best thing ever)

2) Oh the Irish were way worse law and order wise than the current batch. And yet they now assimilated and we celebrate St Patricks day.

Attempted assimilation requires a promoted national identity to assimilate towards. This is often understood as the WASP model of having a strong Protestant work ethic. In modern times this identity is denounced as racist and offensive. During the 2020 election the Democratic party was even flirting with not requiring immigrants to bother speaking English as a language.

BTW if you want some more native births some family leave, medical care, and child care would be real nice for that.

Nordic countries have attempted these social healthcare policies to boost birth rates, and seen no success.

[Mjmd]

There is a reason I argue on this forum. It isn't to persuade you. I've disproven your arguments time and again and can continue, but you've never dis proven my main argument of Democracy > all. I argue to show someone standing up for democracy. I argue so it doesn't die in silence. There were millions of people who supported fascists in the past. Doesn't make them right. My hope is that there are more people who feel democracy is worth fighting for. That is all I can hope.

Immigration is actually a great example of democracy in action. Resource guarding is a pretty natural human reaction. However, we have access to our own (and others) horrible history on immigration. If you do generational math there is a good chance one of your ancestors was oppressed and was oppressing. Which side of history are you going to be on? Are you going to turn others in hardship away? My strongest vein of ancestry is German. My ancestors did not speak English. Sure they didn't speak English, but now I don't speak German. I occasionally go to an Octoberfest but that is hardly a strong cultural connection.

Ya getting native birth rates up is hard. However, its pretty foolish to say "because it still low it had no effect". It could have gone down more otherwise.

[greenline]

I don't think I had any hope of convincing you either, not when you make completely moronic statements like this:

I argue to show someone standing up for democracy. I argue so it doesn't die in silence.

"Democracy" has no chance of dying in silence. Every day, thousands of midwits are paid to churn out articles in the New York Times and similarly affiliated rags talking about how Trump or the Republican Party is the biggest danger to democracy and how democracy is in dire peril and blah blah blah blah. Every single point you've made here is one that is being shouted in unison by an army of paper pushers and policy think tank groups, and retweeted by millionaires, and even the same billionaires you claim to despise! You've picked your side and I've picked mine, but don't pretend you aren't preaching to the choir.

[Mjmd]

I'm proud to stand on the side of democracy for which many have fought and died, sometimes in vein. I consider speaking up on an random internet forum literally the least I can do. If you want to be on the side of autocrats, that is your choice, but historically its not a great choice. Many of those who were fooled into voting for autocrats did so with eyes closed, but you seem to have yours wide open and are choosing anyways.

[AdrienIer]

I don't think I had any hope of convincing you either, not when you make completely moronic statements like this:

I argue to show someone standing up for democracy. I argue so it doesn't die in silence.

"Democracy" has no chance of dying in silence. Every day, thousands of midwits are paid to churn out articles in the New York Times and similarly affiliated rags talking about how Trump or the Republican Party is the biggest danger to democracy and how democracy is in dire peril and blah blah blah blah. Every single point you've made here is one that is being shouted in unison by an army of paper pushers and policy think tank groups, and retweeted by millionaires, and even the same billionaires you claim to despise! You've picked your side and I've picked mine, but don't pretend you aren't preaching to the choir.

Every paper pushers, policy tank groups and millionaires shout in unison that the sky is blue, pfff I'm gonna stand with the guy with the tin foil hat yelling that it's red. You've picked your side I've picked mine.

That's what your argument sounds like to everyone who hasn't fallen for the con man. Perhaps someday you'll realize how things are and leave the cult...

[Charr Babies]

Biden appointed the first Native American to his cabinet (honestly interior secretary should just always be Native American from now on). He helped get basic infrastructure to them for the first time. This didn't happen by accident. They helped him win his election.

Wow! After 250 years of your all mighty accountability, you let one native breathe in the same room. How white of you!

Again, its a flawed argument to say "democracies have problems > autocracies are better"...... Some accountability is better than none.

No one here said autocracies is better than democracies. It's a flawed argument to defend your ugly deeds because someone else might be worse. It just shows you have no defense.

No one here said autocracies is better then democracies. That is your strawman trying to hide the flaws of your believes cus you have no defense against the charges. 

No one here said autocracies is better than democracies. Stop hiding behind your strawman. Why not compare one democracy system to another democracy system. 

Maybe there is no perfect one size fits all democratic system, that we should ALLOW other democratic nations to rule as best fit for themselves. I am sure most reasonable people would agree. Yet, you vilify any other non democratic nations as if none of them are doing good to their people. WTF are you to judge how other people should live with your brainwashed ideals?

No one here said autocracies is better than democracies. Defend what you do by what you do. 

Again, Russia doesn't have anything to fear. They have nukes. I'm not sure I can follow all of what you say, but the point is they invaded Ukraine because THEY wanted to. They were never under serious threat.

So which is it? Nothing to fear, and now not so serious threat? Doing backflips double speak again? Of course Russia should worry. Their fate should not be decided by the whim by another entity who is proven to use forces of any means; by a crazy orange hyena today or a senile old man tomorrow.

[Mjmd]

Oh there are democratic nations better than ours. I've admitted as much. I believe I called us a "weak" democracy. My argument has been democracies are better than autocracies. I'm not saying we are perfect, so agreement? I am however saying we can get better. Sure we've treated immigrants poorly for centuries, but we can at least have conversation and voting on if we should continue treating them like sub humans. Is that perfect accountability. Of course not. But is it better than an autocrat repressing people with no backlash possible? 100%.

Why should Russia worry? Why should their worry mean invading another nation? In case my argument wasn't clear before its basically "there is no serious threat to their country therefore invasion isn't justified".

[Charr Babies]

Oh there are democratic nations better than ours. I've admitted as much. I believe I called us a "weak" democracy. My argument has been democracies are better than autocracies. I'm not saying we are perfect, so agreement? I am however saying we can get better. Sure we've treated immigrants poorly for centuries, but we can at least have conversation and voting on if we should continue treating them like sub humans. Is that perfect accountability. Of course not. But is it better than an autocrat repressing people with no backlash possible? 100%.

Still going on with your strawman? No one here said autocracies is better than democracies!!!

Why should Russia worry? Why should their worry mean invading another nation? In case my argument wasn't clear before its basically "there is no serious threat to their country therefore invasion isn't justified"

Probably the same reason we invade everyone else. It gets tiring to type our bullying over and over again, thus I refrain to using Iraq alone. We invaded and desecrated Iraq on a false pretense and you cant understand why Ukraine!?!?



Why should we worry about Russia to have built about 750+ military bases in at least 80 countries worldwide. (just imagine the good that money can do to our own well being) Why should we worry about Russia to have nukes (not to mention chem and bio weapons) distributed all over NATO? Your government is screaming "FEAR US" and the little o you says nothing to fear. 

[Mjmd]

Ya we did invade Iraq. We shouldn't have and neither should have Russia invaded Ukraine. It will hopefully make us more cautious about going to war again. There were public protests about. We can now all mock the US government for their lies without being jailed. I am glad no one is saying autocracies are better. I'm not saying the US is perfect, but for some reason you seem to think that is what I'm saying?

I mean I fear any country having nukes. I don't like war in general. I think the fact we can show the horrors of war will hopefully help prevent future ones.