[SPOILERS] swance bitten, twice shy

[ljubljana]

1. they do not, the overflow gets added to the next turn's production, so in this example a) you'd commit the extra 3h to next turn's warrior build and b) you'd still be dry-whipping if you whipped said warrior that turn

2. just tested this, you do have to stay building the settler the turn after you whip to get it to come out

(as usual, knowledgeable IV people pls correct me if i am spreading misinformation lol)

[Jabah]

Q1. The overflow will be apply to the item in the queue during production phase (after you finish your turn), so it is NOT already there during your turn and you it will be a dry whip during your turn (nit sure what happen tio the 3h overflow then, probably add to the extra production of the whip plus city production for next turn if not above the allowed overflow).
Q2. you can switch after whipping (and dry whip other multiple things, quite useless except whipping in anger when you are going to lose a city, but it is/seems to be bad behavior), but I am sure you need to have them in the production box at end of turn to have them out (and only 1 per turn)

[aetryn]

Thanks Aetryn. AH first with Zulu looks much better than I thought. As a slight tweak, what do you think about 4->2 whipping the settler on T30 when BW comes in? Then the city regrows to 4 on T36 and this seems slightly better overall.

On what turn did the settler come out when you left AH for after BW and chopped it at 2 pop?

Also could you or someone else please answer a couple of questions on chopping so I can try it too. How many turns does it take to chop a forest and how many hammers do you get from it? And when do you receive the yield - is it mid-turn when it's the worker's turn to act, or does it happen between turns? (I.e. can I start a new build on the turn the chop is due, receive the hammers into it, and whip to completion without the dry whip penalty?)

The issue with whipping the settler is you have to waste a turn in Anarchy unless you picked SPI (if you did, I probably would whip, but I wasn't assuming that). Generally it's better to eat the Anarchy turn after the first settler is produced but before it settles, so you aren't delaying a city and the second city doesn't lose a turn.

Settler comes out T27 with early chop on Zulu, T28 with AH, T29 without AH but not doing first chop, so it's not a huge savings, but it does facilitate getting to size 4 faster and chopping a second worker. In any case, I'd probably think about a 5->3 or 6->4 whip of the next settler, but I'd have to test whipping the worker and chopping the next settler. Once we have picked a civ and trait, I will do more analysis with a tighter decision space.

[aetryn]

Thanks everyone for the answers! (and of course you need to switch before whipping )

Here are my thoughts:

AH first seems better because if pottery won't come before ~T40 anyway and it would be another few turns to AH, then more would be lost from the unimproved cow that would be gained from bringing the granary forward.

So the worker's timing would be:
T12 out and starts the wheat
T17 wheat ready, start cow on T18
T22 cow ready, T24 start deer
T28 deer ready

Then there are several options for the worker and it depends mostly on where the second city will be and what needs to be done there:
- T29 start ivory and finish on T33.
- Move to a forest and start chopping on T30. Probably at one of the good spots for a future cottage, and probably better than the ivory as it's not ideal to work a food negative tile initially.
- (If workers can improve resources out of your territory) go to prepare a resource at the future city 2.

Btw since the capital must spend at least 2 turns on settlers and workers to avoid dry whipping (and ideally not more since whipping gives you a better than 1:1 exchange rate), it is indeed best to be able to share the wheat and cow on these turns to avoid the food->hammer conversion. Not a huge deal initially but after granary it becomes significant. And for initial defensive purposes having the first 3 cities packed together sounds good too.

For the capital building order (sp means stockpile, +XfYh is the foodhammer output on that turn):
T0-T12 worker
T12 cow at +3f2h
T17 sp15f10h. farmed wheat at +5f3h
T19 grow to 2, sp3f16h, farmed wheat and cow +6f3h
T22 sp21f25h, farmed wheat and pastured cow +7f5h
T23 grow to 3, sp4f30h, continue at +7f6h
T27 grow to 4, sp5f54h, start settler. +13fh

Up to here we have accummulated 54h that can go to 3 units. Maybe 2 warriors and 1 scout since it would be very good to do more scouting and understand who the neighbours are and if they'd be a threat, and maybe even if there is someone we could rush at Impi (even if other neighbours profit equally, we'd all still be ahead of the other players, as long as this doesn't result in us being exposed or a likely dogpile target). Also there is a research bonus when you know civs who have the tech.

An interesting option is if one of the T12-T17 turns goes into a worker since that will allocate 3f2h which won't slow down growth but will 'lubricate' the worker for later immediate whipping while 'wasting' only 3f in terms of foodhammer conversion. The disadvantage is that it will slow down the first and second units by a turn.

T28 camp on the deer complete, continue at +15fh
T34 settler out. 103fh naturally in settler +9 overflow from before (+ 20 from chop optionally)  Revolt to slavery.

From food sharing perspective best would be city 2 in range of wheat, and maybe even the deer as well (the tile at 447 reaches both). This could be just 1 turn travel time so perfect for the revolt.

If the settler travels two turns it may be better to first whip the lubricated worker and then revolt on T35. Or alternatively depending on the copper location and/or other resources it may be preferred to do another quick settler. In that case put one turn's production into the settler and (assuming the first worker chopped instead of ivory) you'll be able to 4->2 whip the settler on T36.

That's it from me for now, will check in at the end of the week to see about leader traits but thinking that FIN would be excellent and the other one is flexible.

I think you definitely want a second scout as your first unit produced since barbs are off and you won't need to escort the settler. Possibly a third since this is a big map, but it might well depend on what we find with the first two scouts. No need to lock stuff in too tightly until we see some of our surroundings - like picking second city site, for instance. We can desire to share the wheat/deer or cow, but claiming more resources with the cities is more important.

Workers cannot improve tiles outside of your borders except for road building.

Best is to whip pop that can only work unimproved tiles and try to maintain all of your improved tiles (especially your bonuses). The ivory tile isn't fantastic but it's still pretty good, so we should try to keep the capital working 4 tiles as much as possible. That's one reason I suggested a 5->3 first whip if it's at all feasible, since it whips off one pop that's not working anything critical and minimizes time the city isn't using all its good tiles. But obviously sharing tiles makes that a lot easier to manage, so best is to revisit micro plans after map scouting happens and we start dotmapping. We're clearly going worker first, and there's no particular reason to open AH over Mining since you can finish both before you'd get to the cow, so I'd probably recommend making very tentative plans beyond T17 and letting scouting fill in the blanks.

[Tarkeel]

Whipping a unit and then not letting it complete is a trick that's sometimes done to hide creeping power while researching something like Guilds for knights. You can whip a Horcher with plenty of overflow, and then stuff it back into queue. When Guilds complete it will then queue upgrade to a knight, and you can finish it the turn Guilds comes in. If you have the hammers/pop to spare, you might even have a partially completed catapult and/or pike to follow it.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

I love the Zulu pick, mostly because my in-laws are from KwaZulu-Natal, so I've got personal connections.

Sawubona, losers!

[Tarkeel]

Workers cannot improve tiles outside of your borders except for road building.

I missed this one. They can also chop forests and clear jungle, but only in neutral territory. Roads can actually be built on other players territory, but some consider that rude.

[aetryn]

Workers cannot improve tiles outside of your borders except for road building.

I missed this one. They can also chop forests and clear jungle, but only in neutral territory. Roads can actually be built on other players territory, but some consider that rude.

Technically that's removing a feature, but fair enough! I suppose roads aren't really an improvement as such either.

[ljubljana]

wait, really, roads can be built in others' territory?? that seems highly relevant in commando meta. are you saying there's a norm/soft ban against doing so?

[Miguelito]

no soft ban, just some people may not enjoy you roading their territory. But a typical example where it's quite good is railroading for backwards allies. Did a lot of that in PB59