RBP3 [SPOILERS] - Zara of the Ottomans

[WarriorKnight]

Hi all,

India is over 1,000 beakers into Rifling and it's due in 6t...I started teching it because I thought it was the tech priority and we didn't want to delay it. I know I'm not the diplo guy here, and I apologize for not using the proper forum to discuss this, but I did discuss it with Portugal via chat, and honestly it wasn't too hard of a call - we were done with our tech and Portugal still had 1-2t on theirs. Therefore we tech the next one, right?

-sunrise

Wow, India get Rifling in 6t? That's only 1 turn behind PAT. Seems I was a little misinformed before.

Good news nonetheless, if India have focused on commerce recently then we don't need to feel so bad about teching for them if they pull their weight and that means we'll finally have 4 decent techers. PAT will really fall behind soon enough assuming we live (and Inca can stop Mali).

I decided to send the 5 knights to Inca since they'll need them for sure. When the crisis is over, if they live we can request them back again and they'll be upgraded.

[WarriorKnight]

Preformed out T145 civic swap to Nationhood/Slavery/FM/Theo. Demogs before and after:

before



after



The production number hurts with losing engineers in all our cities and the bureau bonus. But it's necessary.

Good news is that we've shaved a turn off steel and are right behind #1 in GNP.

Also got the fur this turn, and we'll get silk soon enough.

[Sockboy]

T147 has rolled round. The good news is we popped a Great Artist! So now we need to decide where to plant. WK marked out an interesting tile (it's the one in black). I think we'll get control of the tiles in blue, which is pretty significant since all the resources in the area are there (a couple of tests in WB support this, although they weren't rigorous). TBH as long as we capture all of the first ring tiles around the city city tile I'll be pretty happy. This tile is superior to the "or here" spot I think.



We can get a settler in place and settled on t149 if we road the tile, else it'll be t150. The artist can get there on t148, so that doesn't matter. I'm in kind of two minds about this though, firstly the city can be one-moved over the diagonal tile. We can pack it full of Janns, however cavs v Janns @60% defence is pretty much a wash, cavs with a couple of promotions are about 50/50 with Janns(assuming full defensive bonus). Once we get a handful of rifles here we should be safe, but if Krill upgrades a load of cuirassiers to cavs, we could be in a bit of trouble on the turn war gets redeclared.

Secondly, if we can declare the turn we plant, then we've got a great chance of one-moving Bad Ass ourselves. However due to the peace treaty we won't be able to declare for another 6 turns, or t152/3 and PAT are due for rifling in 2 turns (t149) which gives Krill 4/5 turns to build/draft cavs/rifles. Krill did just revolt civics, perhaps we should check out which ones' he's in since he won't be able to revolt for another 5 turns (Is he in nationhood?). I think if we settle now, razing Bad Ass will be very costly for us.

I'm not sure whether to go for the safe plant now or to wait. I'm leaning towards playing it safe and planting ASAP (t149), but could be convinced otherwise Thoughts guys?

I've also interrupted a few builds to get cuirassiers started, we'll whip them into cavs once they're available. I'm assuming we're only a handful of turns behind PAT on the run to rifles? You can see from the screenshot above we're 6 turns from Steel.

[WarriorKnight]

Chat with HRE, summary at bottom:

DIM: hey
me: hiya
3:30 PM what's up?
DIM: we need to reconsider our current position
3:31 PM me: ok
3:32 PM any particular reason why?
DIM: you probably know we'd be welcomed with open arms in PAT
me: yeah
considering that?
DIM: well, I'm tired of the status quo
3:33 PM me: me too
we were considering what might happen if we switched
DIM: we need to carry some members which are clearly not pulling their weight
3:34 PM but for it to have a clear effect we'd need to switch both
me: both? as in us 2?
DIM: yeah
3:35 PM i cannot consider switching if Ottomans stay in CUDDLE
me: neither can we if you stayed with cuddle
DIM: so it is basically a joint decision
me: yeah
3:36 PM there were a few good reasons why we should stay with cuddle though
DIM: sure tell me
me: the most important being that most of our military is currently on the pat border
3:37 PM and that means we'd be vulnerable to india
DIM: that's what i was going to say
we'd need to keep it quiet for a number of turns
giving us time to move armies to the north
3:38 PM me: definately
im not sure what other reasons you guys have
we have some 5 cities that we'd need to defend
3:39 PM DIM: i'm sure some pat members would be willing to station troops in our borders, should we require, request it
3:40 PM me: well, if we switch, im sure we would need to request some
something else it would affect
we got a great artist a few turns back
3:41 PM and we were planning to plant and bomb a city near krill
from next turn
DIM: yeah that wouldn't work
3:42 PM me: yeah, nothing like declaring a culture war then asking to join them

DIM: anyway, i know you need to discuss this with thte team
me: yeah
3:43 PM its not easy to catch them on the weekend though
DIM: but I can tell you I'm leaning towards joining PAT for a decisive advantage
me: well, after we help pat win over cuddle, why wont they turn on us?
DIM: and also I 'm bone tired of the current situation
3:44 PM so ask for a nap
me: true, although a new tech alliance doesnt plan to attack immediately
3:45 PM anyway, need to think about it a bit
DIM: i think we can consider being aggressive once we switch
if we switch
3:46 PM otherwise there is no point
me: well, we've run out of land
3:47 PM DIM: do you have any naps?
me: no
DIM: neither do i
:D
me: cant really attack anyone in cuddle
:D
3:48 PM DIM: too bad you gave those troops to inca
me: yeah well, its too late now
cant see inca attacking with mali still on the other sid
e
3:49 PM DIM: no, but i could see us attacking
me: true
what about anyone else?
3:50 PM DIM: rome i think we can leave for now
there not interested enough to be a threat
me: yeah
DIM: Portugal on the other hand...
me: interested in attacking them?
3:51 PM DIM: to be honest, yest
me: ok
well, we'd probably be defending against india
they still have that 17 ha stack
DIM: lol
me: we saw that a few turns ago
yeah well, that's still a lot
DIM: pat has rifling next turn
3:52 PM me: true, but india should get it in 2
3:53 PM DIM: are there the funds?
me: ruff is funding them
3:54 PM still, need to discuss with my team
DIM: yeah
me: especially for a backstab like this
DIM: i don't really consider it a backstab
realignment
3:55 PM me: maybe
DIM: it's not like we pledged eternal brotherhood
me: lol
DIM: and frankly i'd rather stop the game if we continue the status quo
me: well, cuddle would definately feel like it was
i mean, we're 2 of their 4 techers
3:56 PM DIM: byz would leave too
me: they would?
DIM: that's what i heard
me: didnt they reject pat at the beginning?
3:57 PM hmmmm, been in contact with pat?
DIM: ofcourse
didn't really consider till yesterday
i still would prefer to create a whole new group
3:58 PM but i don't think that's possible
me: pat is too tight i guess
DIM: yeah and better organised man
3:59 PM me: agree
DIM: i mean come one, we're still chasing them techwise
8 vs 6
me: well, i wouldnt call lib and compass that far behind
portugal is 1t from lib
and compass is what? a 2t tech?
4:00 PM DIM: inca is lost
4:01 PM me: yeah, thats a problem
DIM: anyway, we'll talk later in the day
me: yeah ok
4:02 PM the artist bomb is a problem though, we were planning on doing it next turn
4:03 PM DIM: bah i don't think it's that much of a problem
me:
DIM: it's only krill's land ;à
take care, wel'll talk later
me: yeah, later

It looks like they want to join PAT now. TBH, I'm still undecided over the issue, although I'm still leaning towards cuddle. On one hand, now hre wants to join pat, they mention Byz would leave CUDDLE too, and India don't have their sentry HA stationed in our land anymore (means we can reposition troops more easily). On the other hand, we've just given 5 Knights to Inca, India still pose a threat to us and if we switch to pat we can't continue Operation bomb Bad ass (although we would have a spare settler and artist). I guess drafted Rifles would keep us safe in the short term, but we still have 5 cities to defend (although Cimmeria isn't under threat, so it would probably be 4 cities).

I'm not really sure what to do right now, but if we plant Seth and bomb it we certainly wouldn't have this option anymore. I'm kinda leaning against joining pat still, since we probably wouldn't get far against anyone other than Ruff (who is probably our second best friend behind hre), and India would be sure to cause problems for us.

[Pegasus]

I just don't see the benefit in joining PAT for the Ottomans. We can't hold India and attack Ruff or Inca unless we have support from Krill & Carthage.

This to me gives an easy path for DIM to expand into Inca territory and we will fall further behind.

[WarriorKnight]

I just don't see the benefit in joining PAT for the Ottomans. We can't hold India and attack Ruff or Inca unless we have support from Krill & Carthage.

This to me gives an easy path for DIM to expand into Inca territory and we will fall further behind.

Well, Inca can't be attacked ATM thanks to all of their drafting, but I think HRE's target is Portugal. I agree that we can't really gain much currently if we do switch to PAT right now, however...

Hi guys,

I was wondering if you guys would be around today for a fairly brief chat. If you have already talked to HRE, I'm sure you'll understand why it would probably be wisest to consider all of the options.

Krill

Heh, Krill's probably guessed that we want to bomb him and wants to talk to us. I think we should give him a chance though and see what he has to say before doing anything (he'll try and talk us out of it, but he'll definately need to offer us land or something before I'll consider it).

[WarriorKnight]

Wow, just wow:

new.mail.storage: Yo dude
7:46 PM me: hi krill
new.mail.storage: Hi
Have you spoke to HRE since last night?
7:47 PM me: yeah, i spoke to them recently
new.mail.storage: So, you understand the offer, I take it? I'd expect you to be hesitant tbh, what with bordering India, Aztecs and Inca and having just gifted a few units away
7:48 PM me: well, the offer us joining pat right?
new.mail.storage: yeah
me: well, yeah, we've been thinking about it
7:50 PM just a sec
new.mail.storage: np
7:51 PM me: ok, back
7:52 PM yeah, we are hesitant
mainly for the reasons you described
we arent totally against the deal
7:53 PM also need my teams concencous
but if we do switch to pat, it would leave us vulnerable to india and inca
mainly india though
7:54 PM new.mail.storage: Well, if you were to switch, India would have to defend their entire north, from maya and babylon, and I reckon Byz would also be willing to switch along with you and HRE
7:55 PM me: that's true, but they've had to defend their entire north all this time anyway
new.mail.storage: Not really, they have had NAPs, and mMaya are fairly weak
Maya were like 4th lowest power last time I checked 10 turns ago
7:56 PM but now Rifling is in, and maya have an insanely high happy cap, they want to get into a war or two
7:57 PM Byz, well, they help make up the numbers against India
I don;t think anyone would say no to another 20 rifles/cuirs/cavs holding down some more indian units
7:58 PM Supposedly Babylon and Rome are friends and have some sort of agreement in place, leaving babylon readfy to deal 100% with india
8:00 PM Other point which I think is an interesting one is that the Buddhist shrine can't really fall into Mayas' hands or all of us are screwed, so I'd be preetty supportive of you in any campaign to, uh, liberate Aztec cities
me: heh
8:01 PM new.mail.storage: And Inca, well, they are the filling in a sandwich between you and Mali, long term. if you guys were to swap, without trading Steampower (and I don;t know what agreements you have in place), the CUDDLE rump can't really afford 2 techers
8:04 PM me: ok, so your saying that you would support us going through aztec?
new.mail.storage: Basically, yeah
me: inca is probably going to fall long term yeah
babylon and maya keep india busy
8:05 PM new.mail.storage: Well, baylon, Byz, Maya, myself...you will obviously have to keep some defensive forces around, Khitai needs that against Ruff at hte very least, and it also helps limit India
8:06 PM me: yeah, i agree with that
8:07 PM sorry, give me a min
new.mail.storage: np
still looking at the turn myself
me: k
8:09 PM back
8:10 PM this is looking like a world war situation
new.mail.storage: Yeah
me: is anyone going for portugal?
new.mail.storage: HRE
England.
I'll be threatening their SE as well, likely take a city myself
me: ok
8:11 PM i'll obviously need to hear my teams thoughts about this
new.mail.storage: Ofcourse, of course
8:12 PM I didn;t want anyone saying that India wold be completely unthreatened though
me: true
8:14 PM ok, well i cant really make any desicions without comments from my team
8:15 PM but i'll get back to you when we discuss this a bit
new.mail.storage: cool
I need to head out anyway
me: np
new.mail.storage: have good day then mate
me: you too

OK, so if we (and additionally Byz and HRE) move to PAT, World war 1 will begin. Everyone in PAT will be planning to attack someone else in CUDDLE. Portugal will be attacked by HRE and England, India will be attacked by Babylon, Maya, Byz and Krill, Inca and Rome will be left while we head for Ruff (possibly with Maya or Mali).

For how it would affect us, we would definitely need to leave a defensive force for Khitai and Brythunia, but Cimmeria and Ophir are isolated, and Stygia should be the new front line. Ruff has one of the lowest powers in the game (even lower than Inca before the massive draft), and we still have our artist. Krill even mentioned that he would support us for getting the Buddhist holy city, which would definitely be a nice prize to get.

The main downside is defense against Inca or India at the beginning (as expected). Inca have a massive army, but they can't afford to go on the offensive since they can't replace them at all without drafting themselves dead and their army is the only thing keeping them alive ATM. India is the main problem, but we would have a few turns to draft rifles and they would be pressured from all other directions too.

So, what do we think about this? We would get some of Ruff's cities nearby and long term we can go for Inca. It wouldn't be too hard to get a NAP in place with Krill/Carthage, and we don't have to catch up in tech anymore. We would have to watch out for India stacks, but attacking Ruff is sure to go much more sucsessfully for us than trying to go for Krill.

[WarriorKnight]

Well I played T149 except founding and bombing Shem, since I'm not sure what you all think of it yet (I'm leaning towards joining PAT since CUDDLE will probably lose to PAT long term, and Ruff is by far an easier target than Krill).

I will do our T150 overview next turn. although that depends if we can decide what to do.

[ad hoc]

well i'm not really okay with swapping, we've done all the hard work and caught up with tech and we will most probably pull ahead as we've got more techers than PAT.

i think Krill is aware of this and is trying to split CUDDLE to stop this happening. We should be trying the reverse and be trying to split PAT.
perhaps we should aproach Carthage with some type of deal perhaps a long term NAP while we attack Krill with the payoff being some of Krills Land.

[WarriorKnight]

well i'm not really okay with swapping, we've done all the hard work and caught up with tech and we will most probably pull ahead as we've got more techers than PAT.

With the collapse of Inca, there is no way we can pull ahead in tech soon, since we've lost one of our funders. Also, Maya is becoming quite a scary researcher. At best, we would only just manage to keep up.

i think Krill is aware of this and is trying to split CUDDLE to stop this happening. We should be trying the reverse and be trying to split PAT.

Well, I agree that in an ideal world, PAT would split up, but that is impossible ATM. They are too tight and much better organised than CUDDLE.

It's not just Krill that approached us either, as both Babylon and Maya have approached me about this too (although not as in depth as Krill).

perhaps we should aproach Carthage with some type of deal perhaps a long term NAP while we attack Krill with the payoff being some of Krills Land.

There is no way we can pull this off. This would be equivilent to Carthage leaving PAT, and that won't happen. Even if they did, there is no guarantee that we could even get any of Krill's land (after Bad ass, which would be easy due to the bomb).

I'm not sure how going for Krill via CUDDLE, where it will be difficult to gain any ground since he is equal if not better than us in tech and power, is a better descision for us personally then attacking Ruff via PAT, who has the lowest power in the game (easy to take cities) and will fall behind in tech soon enough should we switch. The main reason why we stayed with CUDDLE before is fear of India moving in, but we would have a couple of turns to reposition our troops before announcing our intentions, and they will be disracted from other directions to focus on attacking us. A world war is a good thing for us too since that means the people who still have space to expand into focus on military instead of settlers, not to mention we would have one of the easiest targets.