4 score, and 77pb years ago (superdeath)

[superdeath]

wait, did they really change native america's starting techs to hunting/fishing in CtH?? if so, why? i am really sorry if i misled you into picking them based on having "good" starting techs that are not actually good here (( that is on me, i didn't fully read the CtH changelog before posting and was just going off of civwiki....

anyway i do like their UB, and the synergy with churchill - with CHA barracks + totem pole = double-promoted units out of the gate right? AND you're pro so you can spam 4-promoted archers almost immediately? seems very fun and i'm looking forward to seeing it play out :D

the working plan is to expand like a madlad. Our archers and future longbows and rifles will be a major pain to dislodge. I did a sim and while its not super fast, it doesnt have any wasted worker turns iirc. Workboat into worker is the play. The extra $ from the netted clam will help push a little bit harder on tech. VERY curious what is actually in the fog. If you get a chance to sim/want to, id love to see how it sizes up to my sim.

I like to change it up a bit every now and again. Keep my opponents guessing. Not gonna lie, taking AGG/CHA Rome or Mongolia WAS a thought.. But i want something that shouldnt be easily run over, and providing i dont fuck up the micro.... should be able to have a nice mid/late game.

[ljubljana]

i like this plan! what are your sim timings for eg the first settler, the first few techs? is it workboat -> worker -> settler? i can't promise i'll have time to sim in the next few days but if i do, i'll give it a shot

also what tech path were you thinking of? i am trying to get a handle on exactly HOW quickly we want to tech sailing for PRO domestic ICTRS.... i guess we want to get a workboat scout out pretty quickly to assess whether there are any good snowball spots on that island....

i like that this pick is capable of both having a strong econ lategame (especially with the two best commerce-generating traits banned) AND pivoting on a dime into military if the situation warrants it. and you have both early commerce generation and early production (via CHA whipping) for the snowball. especially once we have an island city, getting +3 gold for free from TRs should make the first wave of expansions practically pay for itself (is that the right math...?)

should we consider moving the capital 1W? i hate moving off the plains hill but we would get one more lighthouse lake by doing so.... not an amazing tile but it's strictly more food i guess. and there might be more resources in the fog to the west, while we know there are not any in the tiles we'd be moving away from in the east other than the very late silks. it also doesn't invalidate settling ON the silk later which could build moai statues very fast for a pretty good payout. and it enables the trick of hiding boats in the lake, and maybe even of using the lake as part of a canal depending on what the SW looks like.... not sure if i'd do it as the appeal of the plains hill is very strong but seemed worth bringing up

[superdeath]

i like this plan! what are your sim timings for eg the first settler, the first few techs? is it workboat -> worker -> settler? i can't promise i'll have time to sim in the next few days but if i do, i'll give it a shot

also what tech path were you thinking of? i am trying to get a handle on exactly HOW quickly we want to tech sailing for PRO domestic ICTRS.... i guess we want to get a workboat scout out pretty quickly to assess whether there are any good snowball spots on that island....

i like that this pick is capable of both having a strong econ lategame (especially with the two best commerce-generating traits banned) AND pivoting on a dime into military if the situation warrants it. and you have both early commerce generation and early production (via CHA whipping) for the snowball. especially once we have an island city, getting +3 gold for free from TRs should make the first wave of expansions practically pay for itself (is that the right math...?)

should we consider moving the capital 1W? i hate moving off the plains hill but we would get one more lighthouse lake by doing so.... not an amazing tile but it's strictly more food i guess. and there might be more resources in the fog to the west, while we know there are not any in the tiles we'd be moving away from in the east other than the very late silks. it also doesn't invalidate settling ON the silk later which could build moai statues very fast for a pretty good payout. and it enables the trick of hiding boats in the lake, and maybe even of using the lake as part of a canal depending on what the SW looks like.... not sure if i'd do it as the appeal of the plains hill is very strong but seemed worth bringing up

When i get home ill fire up my sim and write down the timings. I wanna say i went workboat-worker-warrior-settler. Dont recall if i finished the warrior b4 starting settler or not. Agriculture-mining-bw then AH iirc. Was a later-than-wanted 2nd city, but the capital at turn... 40 had both clams, i think sheep completed, corn, and a grasshill mine. Corn obviously being transferred to 2nd city. Hoping for some nice stuff in the fog. Would hate to have to immediately go sailing to plant a 3rd city. Here's hoping for at least 5 cities on main island and the rest in the sea.

If we border Japan, we must maintain a naval edge on them. Caravels are pushed even sooner to being needed. Although we are likely their last target for Samurai. PRO/CHA barracks totem pole longbows/crossbows have to be nightmares. Hell, i bet archers on hills dont do TOO terribly.

[Commodore]

Disappointed this isn't an Amphibious Longbow rush.

[ljubljana]

we would need 8 XP apiece, so can do it with vassalage + theocracy + barracks + totem poles..... maybe it SHOULD be i guess CHA native america is the unique civ/trait combination that can feasibly make an entire STACK amphibious in the early medieval era, other than the collateral.... which i suppose means in practice we'd want a comp like mace/crossbow/longbow to avoid having to make stables. we would need a pretty well-spread religion for that but at least this is a small game, i guess. and you could have navigation 1 on the galleys as well...

[civac2]

Any AGG leader can easily get Amphibious off the shelf.

[ljubljana]

it needs work but here is my first try:






builds were worker - work boat (working max food) - settler (at size 5 lol) - settler - work boat; one lovely thing about CHA combined with less land scouting needed on a water map is that we can skip the first warrior for a while, since the capital is still happy with no MP at size 5. techs were ag - AH - mining - bronze - wheel - pottery; there's so much food here that we can literally finish the settler, swap to slavery, then a chop comes in and we can immediately double-whip the second settler for 3 cities on turn 40, and now we can either whip a worker or make a few work boats for the second + third cities while growing up to a settler triple-whip

major problems include: the worker has 2 wasted turns waiting for bronze working but i think that will happen if we do worker-first with this tech path regardless, assuming no capital move. also none of our cities are hooked up for PRO trade routes.... i'd be interested to see what happens if we do sailing research instead of wheel, then plant city 3 or 4 on the island for instant ICTRs... that's heavily dependent on what our scout finds though ofc

[ljubljana]

answer: things line up to one-turn a galley on the turn sailing comes in via chop + settler 3-whip overflow



and then with 3 three-commerce trade routes....



we hit pottery on turn 50 even with BW and sailing already in the bank..... and from here the capital presumably goes chop lighthouse -> settler triple-whip -> chop granary -> settler triple-whip to turn all that CHA happy into extra cities...... idk if it's optimal but seems pretty neat, no?

also, small map, monarch tech costs are a trip 

[superdeath]

Disappointed this isn't an Amphibious Longbow rush.

Its not off the table... BUT i dont want to get a reputation as some ultra aggressive player

[superdeath]

answer: things line up to one-turn a galley on the turn sailing comes in via chop + settler 3-whip overflow



and then with 3 three-commerce trade routes....



we hit pottery on turn 50 even with BW and sailing already in the bank..... and from here the capital presumably goes chop lighthouse -> settler triple-whip -> chop granary -> settler triple-whip to turn all that CHA happy into extra cities...... idk if it's optimal but seems pretty neat, no?

also, small map, monarch tech costs are a trip 

Doesnt sound too bad. Ill double check what my sim is. I wanna say i didnt have any wasted worker turns. BUT, i also went workboat first.