New EitB PBEM

[fireblaze]

What's AI Diplo on the settings, and more generally is there a primer for how the current meta/ruleset of diplo developed? The "blink twice in trade screen to say you love me" stuff seems a bit odd to me at first glance but i'm assuming it's basically just developed to avoid endless backroom chatter diplo that slows games down to a crawl while amping up commitment/requirements to play?

[coldrain]

What's AI Diplo on the settings, and more generally is there a primer for how the current meta/ruleset of diplo developed? The "blink twice in trade screen to say you love me" stuff seems a bit odd to me at first glance but i'm assuming it's basically just developed to avoid endless backroom chatter diplo that slows games down to a crawl while amping up commitment/requirements to play?

As I understand it, Ai-diplo is de facto setting for all games and has been for some time now. I added it to the setting list for this game, but maybe it was unnecessary to do so as all games are assumed automaticlally to be Ai-diplo unless agreed otherwise. AI-diplo means that players are not allowed to communicate outside the in game trade screen, and even there, no writing is allowed. You can only propose trade deals, but some form of "language" has developed where certain resource trades have an added meaning, for example proposing fish-for-fish trade means that you have friendly intentions (for now).

About the history of why AI-diplo became the standard: I read a nice explanation in one of the older FFH2 games (don't remember which one now). IIRC, the main reasons for AI-diplo could be listed as:

• Open diplo would take a lot of time and effort to do properly (could slow down the game as you mentioned).
  
• Some agreements and deals made between players were a bit vague and created extra complications when one player perceived that another didn't hold their word on something. This would become even more complicated when players would discuss these deals/actions while making their own turns.
  
• Not all players speak the same language fluently, this would leave non-English speakers at a disadvantage in negotiations.
  
• Pseudo-vassalage: Even if vassal states were disabled in game settings, a player with a strong empire could pressure a weaker player into semi-vassalage with one sided deals (unfavourable non-aggresson pacts, extort a loan or resources in exchange for "protection", etc.).
  
• Band wagoning: Contrary to expected behaviour of players with weaker empires banding together against the leader, in actuality the leader could entice others to join forces and keep his lead (for example, threaten utter destruction to the player in second place and propose to eat the third position player).
  
• A lot of information could be traded with open diplo: troop positions, backstab attempts, invasion plans and more. This meant that the player who mastered diplo negotiations and backroom chatter would have a massive advantage. Therefore skilled use of open diplomacy reduced the importance of good civ 4 gameplay. Many players didn't enjoy this aspect.
  

There might be other reasons that I don't remember right now. I'm still reading oither games to try and understand the "standard" language used in AI-diplo.

[DaveV]

There were also some very hard feelings in some of the diplo games. If someone betrays you after offering fish-for-fish, that's one thing, but if they betray you after building up your trust over the course of months of real time, the betrayal seems more personal.

Also, full diplo seemed to give a big advantage to players who are constantly online. I can remember many occasions where a player tried to chat with another and took a slow response as a rebuff, whereas it was actually just Real Life taking its toll on the second player.

[aetryn]

The ambiguity is kind of a selling point, because miscommunication is a) easier to forgive than outright betrayal, b) means you can only convey fairly simple concepts with any reliability, and c) leads to entertaining games when players don't interpret the communication the same way.

As far generally agreed conventions, here's what I've mostly seen:

• Food resource for food resource (generally fish, but it's not always available) conventionally means friendly intentions for now (how long? what does that mean in terms of scouting, or border settling, or helping an opponent? Not entirely clear nor agreed on)
  
• Metal for Metal (sometimes horses for horses) conventionally means willingness to aid in a war (how much? how long? Do I expect to get some land from that help? Not entirely clear nor agreed on).
  
• Small amounts of gold for equal small amounts of gold is conventionally a turn counter. Usually this is accompanied by other things to try to convey what will happen at that time).
  
• Occasionally specific inexplicable resources are intended to stand for a particular city (usually owned by a third party). This is so prone to misunderstanding that I generally wouldn't recommend relying on the message being received accurately.
  

Usually deals are not accepted but echoed back to indicate agreement. Some people are careful to make the deals problematic for the other side to accept by including some poison pill (like an immediate war declaration, or giving away cities), but this can complicate the meaning which adds to the fun.

Some examples and how I'd interpret them:

I offer Copper and 20 gold for you giving Copper, 20 gold, and Declare War on X:  Are you interested in a war with X in 20 turns?
You send back that you offer "Fish and 20 gold for me giving 20 gold and Declare War on X": Not interested in war but I won't interfere if you do attack.
 
Or, a different exchange:
You offer Wheat and Declare War on your neighbor X, for me offering Wheat and Declare War on my neighbor Y: I want peace with you so I can be more aggressive with X, and suggest you should be aggressive with Y instead of with me (basically I conquer this way, you conquer the other way).
I echo it back exactly to indicate that I agree, at least for now...

There are some things that are hard to distinguish, and again, that's part of the fun. I had an exchange in PB72 where I wasn't sure whether Greenline was planning to attack Xist in 10 turns or was warning me Xist was going to attack me in 10 turns.

Hope that helps a bit.

[Tarkeel]

As an side to what Aetryn says; I remember Mig having huge problems in PB59 trying to buy resources from others for his corporations. Everyone was trying to decode the resources, when Mig just wanted to pay for them. Similarly, Mjmd tried to signal "I'll let you win by space if you join me in this war" without it ever coming across.

In general, if you're trying to communicate something weird in diplo, please leave the solution in your spoiler thread for after the game.

(There's also the True-AI setting in CtH, which I don't think EitB has, which opens up the trade options you have with AIs to swap civics etc.)

[coldrain]

How's the map coming along, is more time needed to make adjustments?

Players, could you please post your preferred playing windows here, so turn order can be determined? And also comment if there's anything about the settings that need adjusting (It seems no objections have been given about the settings, they are also listed on the first post of this thread).

My preferred play window is 16:00 to 21:00 GMT.

[xist10]

My window is relative open - ~9:00 GMT to ~ 23:00 GMT.

In my two other PBEM, my slots are 10:00 - 14:00 GMT, de facto I play most turns ~ 21 GMT.

[RefSteel]

How's the map coming along, is more time needed to make adjustments?

Oh, I should have said: I'll probably keep trying to make adjustments until the game actually starts, but unless Q or Tarkeel or I (or anyone else who wants a look) suddenly spots something egregious that needs a major fix, the map is ready. I'm just waiting for players to finalize their picks (and turn order so I can roll a first player) and I'll edit the civs in, double-check the units, and send it to whoever plays first.

[mackoti]

Oh ,looks like i am   keeping the game.

My prefered window is 19-23  GMT+2 but i can play as  well between 6-8 Gmt+2(with caveat it might not be alway posible)

[Ginger*]

I can usually play 19:00 to 24:00 GMT