American Politics Discussion Thread

[Mjmd]

Its still a rare example of whole nations working together. Its not like their aren't border disputes within NATO / Europe, but they haven't become wars. Which isn't the normal course of Europe history. Are there still some examples; yes. Are there A LOT less; also yes. Its a move in the right direction. And what happened after the "Roman peace" (quoted because again its overblown) THE SAME THING AS THE REST OF HISTORY. We've been killing ourselves for so long for so many stupid reasons. Less of that is good.

[greenline]

More incorrect assumptions and statements. There was violence preceding and following the Roman peace. Not all violence is equivalent. The wars before the Roman domination of Europe were between smaller states and tribes, each with genuine sovereignty over their own territory. The violence following the Roman peace was first enormously destructive civil wars, and then barbarian migrations that ravaged what was left. The motivation for having a 'council of Europe' situation, of conflict being mediated while retaining the sovereignty of many independent states, was partially due to the longstanding belief that such independent states were better than seeing rule under one empire precisely because a multitude of states would not fall prey to one civil war, nor atrophy to the point of being defenseless against predatory invasions. The current period of domination by the EU and by NATO is not at all like the council of Europe - it is imperial hegemony by the USA, who has owned the continent since 1945 but pretends not to.

[mackoti]

More incorrect assumptions and statements. There was violence preceding and following the Roman peace. Not all violence is equivalent. The wars before the Roman domination of Europe were between smaller states and tribes, each with genuine sovereignty over their own territory. The violence following the Roman peace was first enormously destructive civil wars, and then barbarian migrations that ravaged what was left. The motivation for having a 'council of Europe' situation, of conflict being mediated while retaining the sovereignty of many independent states, was partially due to the longstanding belief that such independent states were better than seeing rule under one empire precisely because a multitude of states would not fall prey to one civil war, nor atrophy to the point of being defenseless against predatory invasions. The current period of domination by the EU and by NATO is not at all like the council of Europe - it is imperial hegemony by the USA, who has owned the continent since 1945 but pretends not to.

Well i supose everyone would enjoy such an imperial hegemon: majority of the people from EU live better then USA counterparts, Europe was totaly destroyed after the WW2 and now is better then ever was, we even cant say MEGA.

[Mjmd]

I would agree not all wars and rebellions are equivalent. The scale of wars is often based off of the capabilities of the sides. So yes capabilities pre Rome and for that matter in the medieval period were not the same as during the Roman period because the capabilities of the sides varied. That still doesn't diminish the NUMBER of conflicts is vastly different. This also highlights why we should try to diminish number of wars in the present as capabilities have only increased in recent history.

The US has influence and we have some similar goals. They've disagreed with us on a number of issues both in the past and present. I'll let Europeans chime in if they feel this is incorrect.

[GT]

Hungary demanding literally half it's neighbors countries, generally stiring shit whenver they can?
Poland demanding "WW2 compensation" and calling Germany as Nazis?
Cyprus? (Outright war between NATO members, with occupation till today)
NATO members successfully destabilizing Libya (and thus Europe through literally opening doors for mass-migration from Africa)
Same in Syria, creating what, 20 million refugees?
And when NATO actually SHOULD have acted, they didn't (Yugoslavia in the 1990s)
Ah yes, the only time they intervented, they bombed by "accident" the Chinese embassy. And then let the UCK do the same to the Serbs than what they claimed the Serbs did to the Albanians... (I've been there, it's a total shitshow from both sides, yet in the media here you'll only read how bad the Serbs are..)

NATO tries to claim it's a "defensive alliance". That's as defensive as if you're putting nukes in Turkey and then complaining when the other side places them on Cuba..

NATO should have been abolished after the Cold War, and instead Europe should have worked on economical integration - not on pushing NATO borders right next to St. Petersburg..

(It's not like they didn't actually promised that to Russia, but then backtracked on their words as "we never gave them anything in writing")

If you're doing well economically, you're not going to war against each other. The US going full mercantilist is about as stupid as they can be, and this will hurt them BRUTALLY in the long way to come. (We're talking decades here, not years)

It's never a black and white thing. Russia are certainly not the good guys that had a legitimate reason to attack Ukraine, but the West isn't blameless either about the whole conflict heating up, giving Russia a "blueprint" on how attacking other countries with zero casus beli went perfectly fine for them.

[Mjmd]

Has Hungary invaded anyone?
Have Poland and Germany fought a war?
Have Turkey and Greece fought a war? (this is a bigger deal than Poland and Germany not fighting)

Again, tensions within NATO exist. But unlike the rest of European history nothing has come of it. I'm not going to defend anything they have haven't, or have been accused of doing. I am merely pointing out there is still more peace than normal in history. We should keep trying to move in the direction.

I agree that the US going isolationist and mercantilist is stupid btw.

Russia has been invading people for a long time, they hardly need western help on a "blueprint". How many wars with the Ottomans were in the name of protecting Orthodox Christians? Again, there is always a reason.

[greenline]

Well i supose everyone would enjoy such an imperial hegemon: majority of the people from EU live better then USA counterparts, Europe was totaly destroyed after the WW2 and now is better then ever was, we even cant say MEGA.

They certainly enjoyed it when US hegemony meant that the entire budget could go towards social services and briefly enjoying a labor-socialist utopia. Now that the youth population has seen the fruits of cratering birth rates, mass immigration from third world countries, and sabotaging of the economy to spite Russia, most of Europe is not happy about US hegemony in the area. The remaining countries that are rapidly pro USA are mainly Poland, Baltic states, and Ukraine - because in their case, they see it as a choice between US-led liberal dysfunction, or Russian led liberal dysfunction. Neither is ideal.

[GT]

Have Turkey and Greece fought a war? (this is a bigger deal than Poland and Germany not fighting)

Yes, they have:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_in..._of_Cyprus

In fact, "have" is wrong. They're. The Northern part of Cyprus is still occupied by the Turks.. with UN troops stationed.. Not much different than North Korea..

[mackoti]

Hungary demanding literally half it's neighbors countries, generally stiring shit whenver they can?
Poland demanding "WW2 compensation" and calling Germany as Nazis?
Cyprus? (Outright war between NATO members, with occupation till today)
NATO members successfully destabilizing Libya (and thus Europe through literally opening doors for mass-migration from Africa)
Same in Syria, creating what, 20 million refugees?
And when NATO actually SHOULD have acted, they didn't (Yugoslavia in the 1990s)
Ah yes, the only time they intervented, they bombed by "accident" the Chinese embassy. And then let the UCK do the same to the Serbs than what they claimed the Serbs did to the Albanians... (I've been there, it's a total shitshow from both sides, yet in the media here you'll only read how bad the Serbs are..)

NATO tries to claim it's a "defensive alliance". That's as defensive as if you're putting nukes in Turkey and then complaining when the other side places them on Cuba..

NATO should have been abolished after the Cold War, and instead Europe should have worked on economical integration - not on pushing NATO borders right next to St. Petersburg..

(It's not like they didn't actually promised that to Russia, but then backtracked on their words as "we never gave them anything in writing")

If you're doing well economically, you're not going to war against each other. The US going full mercantilist is about as stupid as they can be, and this will hurt them BRUTALLY in the long way to come. (We're talking decades here, not years)

It's never a black and white thing. Russia are certainly not the good guys that had a legitimate reason to attack Ukraine, but the West isn't blameless either about the whole conflict heating up, giving Russia a "blueprint" on how attacking other countries with zero casus beli went perfectly fine for them.

Man, from what you said I can bet you are not living in east Europe or you are one of those prorusian dudes(yes we have like 14% here in Romania as well). And with Russia its lets say 99% black, they keep theyr peple in poverty althouht they have all those riches and want that poverty for others as well. 

Ucraine is a bit of an opresive state(i know that at first hand, thay closed minorities schools, they forced people to became uKrainans), but at least they are weak, and they got help and stoped the russians which are way worse in all measures and always in theyr history spread just desease with the politics.

Usa has loads of shortcomings, but on theyr acompleshiments you have Europe , Japan, South Korea(I dont say was totaly american due, but at least they didnt abandoned Europe to Rusia). They abandoned us once(Romania, BG,hungary) after ww2 and I am realy happy they defended us now, becasue after ukraine for sure Putn would had felt other contries are fascist and ned liberation.

[mackoti]

Well i supose everyone would enjoy such an imperial hegemon: majority of the people from EU live better then USA counterparts, Europe was totaly destroyed after the WW2 and now is better then ever was, we even cant say MEGA.

They certainly enjoyed it when US hegemony meant that the entire budget could go towards social services and briefly enjoying a labor-socialist utopia. Now that the youth population has seen the fruits of cratering birth rates, mass immigration from third world countries, and sabotaging of the economy to spite Russia, most of Europe is not happy about US hegemony in the area. The remaining countries that are rapidly pro USA are mainly Poland, Baltic states, and Ukraine - because in their case, they see it as a choice between US-led liberal dysfunction, or Russian led liberal dysfunction. Neither is ideal.

After leaving in disfunctional Rusian liberty i choose with both my hands and legs the disfunctional Americans. We in Romania never lived as good as now, and feel secure becasue we seen USA is not just words s action as well.