[PB75] Newbfragar and Rusty's Beginner's Guide to Civ4

[ljubljana]

hi best friend! thank you for being my friend all game and not twisting the knife in when ginger and i were locked in existential war way back when. and um.... please ignore my clumsy and extremely telegraphed attack attempt at the very end there one reason for conceding when i did (well, besides the game being over) was that most of the viable paths left seemed to involve attacking you to race mjmd's culture with my own domination push, and i really really didn't want to....

[naufragar]

Oh dear. I worry your opinion of me might change if you read my diplo with Ginger… I’ll write a retrospective post when I’m off work, but I was very impressed with your game. Hope to see you in many more!

[ljubljana]

hahaha well you didn't actually do it and that's all i really cared about at the time i'm sure the temptation to do so was STRONG, i know it would have been for me in your position. and um, as for "many more", we'll see - this took a lot out of me and i'll need many months "off" to recover i imagine. but probably at some point!

[williams482]

This was a great thread, well done.

[superdeath]

Butterfinger:

Ok, this one I grant you is an argument for Serfdom. How else to best utilize its plains cow? Seriously.

Superdeath took this from me after I got my siege weapons wiped out. Then he gave it back to me. (Hence its Superdeathian name of Butterfinger.) I have never forgiven him his generosity and have yet to open borders with him.

Snickers:

Another city that I lost to Superdeath who then gave it back. Notice that this city doesn't have a plains cow but a grassland cow! How delightful. As we get away from my land and into Superdeath's, the resources get greener and Serfdom becomes more attractive.

This continues to perplex me. YOU declared on me, breaking our ally-ship. I captured those cities, and gave you peace WITH the cities back instead of continuing onward. Yet still no open borders? Probably my 2nd biggest question of this game besides how much did Mjmd pay Zulu.

[Mjmd]

naufragar

Intermediate Interlude: Opponent Analysis

Mjmd


The Builder

The Builder is distinguished by an elegant and painstaking development of his civ. Psychologically, he is a rules-lover, since rules and his building impulse flow from the same place: a desire to impose order on the world. For which reason, if you upset the building or even view the paradigm differently, the Builder will react violently, because you are not just a personal opponent, you are an enemy of Order.

When facing a builder, you have a choice to make: can you outbuild the Builder or must you disrupt the Builder? These are your only two choices. If you can't outbuild him, he will dwarf you. Of course, you can always hope that someone else disrupts him, if you're a coward. 

1) A+

naufragar

Obsessive players can spend way more time than is health on these graphs. Me, I'm just checking every turn to see if Superdeath gets a big power spike that might indicate a military build up.

Either Mjmd or Ginger (both playing in this game, so I can't ask) wrote a good bit about evaluating "who's having a breakdown?" Basically at some points in the game, your opponents will have their breakdown. At other points, it'll be you. Rusten and I have lots to gain from peace, so we don't need to throw a tantrum just yet. GT as Boudica (Aggressive leader) might have decided that it's time for his breakdown.

2) Who's the BEATDOWN! Breakdown . But yes basically not only is your combo the beatdown in that timeframe, but depending on how things have developed should you be the beatdown in that moment. I borrowed the idea from Magic the Gathering and it is a good way to look at picks / game states as well. I totally forgot to bring up in my thread despite the partial mtg theme!!!

3) Were you building the Colossus? I was surprised I got that one. I barely stole a lot of wonders this game and as much as the mids were talked about I feel like this one was also pretty big so I want to know how close you were?

Doesn't really matter since Ginger has this sewn up. Mjmd's plan was to grab the religious wonders. Don't know how Ginger/Civac have managed to so completely eat his lunch.

4) I was very very poor and my GP luck was good, but also hurt this specific plan. My people didn't get theological until later when I really didn't want them to be.

Could someone remind me: once you promote a unit to level 4, even if it dies, the Heroic Epic is still unlocked, correct?

Yeah that's right.

Thanks.

5) This is a great entertaining thread and very informative and this is news to me as well.

naufragar
No time for a big t150 report, so instead have the weirdest Civ screenshot I've seen in a while:


GT crossed the entire width of Mjmd's empire with his army rather than defending his cities, so he could attack Gavagai, a player he never neighbored, facilitating the conquest of Gavagai by Superdeath. I don't think I can enumerate all the weirdnesses adequately. First, GT could've massively damaged me with his catapult stack. Second, his choice of target makes no sense that I can see. Third, Mjmd, who has been able to coast by with 0 military units due to Gavagai demilitarizing their border, backstabs his excellent neighbor by letting GT get all the way through to hit Gav. Mjmd is giving Superdeath an easier time, so when Superdeath does finally roll through Gavagai, Mjmd (who, again, has built no army) will be the next easy meal. It's astonishingly bad play by Mjmd. What has he been up to since stealing my Pyramids??? Oh and fourth, GT gave his Great General Pike 30% withdrawal chance. Hmm.

6) I don't think you can call it a backstab. Was I supposed to close borders and push him back with a gentle wind? What was I up after stealing the mids (and after getting a city razed by Gav)? Very very very slowly building city pop. You talked a lot about how food was so important and you showed my bottom tier food stat multiple times. I was fully aware of the importance of Gav as a buffer state and my first knights went to help defend him and SD partially from seeing this did stop his advance. But at this point in time I had nothing but a few longbows.

Because this one was a doozy:


Wait, why is Mjmd offering me a ceasefire? We aren't at war?  And he's offering a ceasefire instead of a binding peace treaty? Did someone ask him to declare war on me? Huh??
Oh, I see, Mjmd is just a paint-huffing lunatic:


The entire time that GT had these workers undefended you chose not to take them, but then when I took them, you attacked me? Why? Your calculus was "Two free workers is good, but taking them from GT is bad, but declaring war on naufragar for them is fine?" What makes taking them from GT, the guy with one city nowhere near you, so much worse than taking them from me?
I said this last turn report, but Mjmd is playing this game actively suicidally. Mjmd, you have 15 cities to Superdeath's 30. You have no military. You have no military traits. What's to stop Superdeath from continuing into you after Gav and taking your wasted Pyramids to show you how to use Police State? Ah, that's right. Me. I'm the thing holding him back because he has to worry about his north. "But naufragar, I can build Knights or muskets or something!" Can you? Have you? Will you build an army from scratch in time to give Superdeath a second's hesitation or will you build banks because econ feels nicer? I despise passivity, but at least passive players don't try to throw the game to someone else. Mjmd trying his damnedest to give the win to Superdeath is going to make me crack a molar.

7) Taking workers sent into the void felt too much like unit gifting so yes I didn't take them (I did end up taking 1 once he started helping SD). But at the time he was roading my territory / areas I wanted roaded and I had units on top of them protecting them for that service. It honestly felt like bad manners for you to take them without declaring on me unless you thought it was just an accident my units were on top of them. I was fully aware I needed you, but those workers were under my protection so I had to try to to avenge them /shrug. Got bad combat luck anyways.

naufragar
In an act of generosity, Superdeath has liberated the two cities he took from me:
So we're back at the status quo ante, except I no longer have an army.

I did foreign policy in the last post, so I'm not going to redo that. Got this undecipherable diplo message from Mjmd:


This looks like he's telling me that Superdeath will attack me on the other side of my empire in 6 turns.

8) I didn't know about the city give backs at the time as I played before that and just saw SD running units through my territory so yes thought he might be up to a sneak attack vs you. See I was aware of what side to be on!

naufragar


And in one turn, the world went mad.

Mjmd declared war on Civac, Superdeath, and me, launching 7 ICBMS. I'm a little insulted that none of them were aimed at me.  Two went to Superdeath. Two went to the ocean? And I believe the rest went towards Civac. Guess Mjmd didn't feel he needed to waste the family atomics on me. Total global power fell by 56%. I'll say that again. The world lost over half its soldiers in one flash.

9) Well two of them were planned for you, but then you split your mega stack! If you wanted nuked you should have kept them stacked!  The two in the ocean were to destroy part of Civacs fleet and get rid of 4 transpots worth of tanks. Love the Dune reference.

10) I was pretty afraid you would send troops into SD land a lot earlier to save him. I had a post where I was debating what line of cities of SD to raze and stop advancing because I really thought you would come in like you did when I finally neared your border. Were you just afraid I would push into you from the desert citeis I took?

This was a great thread, well done.

Agreed!!!

You promised a retrospective post and haven't done it yet.

[naufragar]

You promised a retrospective post and haven't done it yet.

Thanks, William and Mjmd. Flattery and guilt are great ways to get me back to work. I couldn't figure out a good way to do a retrospective without rehashing the thread, so I'm going to imagine questions that each of the players would ask and answer those.

Mjmd: "Did you ever consider building Colossus?" and "What was your strategy in the final 3v1 war?"

At the time of researching Metal Casting, I only had 4 coastal cities. None of them were particularly good and two of them had plenty of cottage-able tiles. It was just never worth it.

As for me defending my south rather than attacking your forces as you moved into Superdeath, once I realized how poor my land was, I resolved to not fall on my sword this game. I would've helped Ginger versus Ljubljana, helped Ljubljana versus you, or Ginger/Ljubljana versus you. I would've been the weaker partner in any of those alliances, so I didn't see the need to take point. It wasn't my job. Similarly, there was no point in sacrificing my troops to defend Superdeath if Ljubljana or Ginger weren't going to attack you. All I would do is delay you eating Superdeath. I wouldn't have gained anything from it. You might've won slower, but without Ljubljana or Ginger, you still would've won, so it made no sense to move without them.

Superdeath: "Why did you betray me, man?" And a corollary with that, "Why'd you never give me open borders?"

The second one is easy to answer, and I did:

Superdeath has been sending me an open borders request about once per turn. I don't know why he's so insistent. I've sent him fish for fish offers, and this turn I just straight up gave him a fish. "I'm not going to attack you (in the next ten turns)! You can stop worrying about me; I just want to build my infrastructure!" I was trying to imagine some sneaky play Superdeath was trying to make to attack Mjmd through my culture, but I can't figure it out. For what it's worth, I absolutely would not let Superdeath attack Mjmd through my culture. My desert cities on the border live at Mjmd's sufferance. I don't need to give him more of a reason to snap them up.

I didn't get anything out of open borders and I stood to lose a couple cities if started a proxy war against Mjmd. SD, for future games, a lot of your diplo made sense in what you could get out of it, but very little sense in what I could get out of it. You commando striking some Mjmd cities far from your borders but also far from his cultural cities didn't help me and in fact would've hurt me.

But then the question of betrayal. Oh boy.

Superdeath throughout his thread talked about how we had been friends all game, and if GT hadn't reported, I would've believed him. But it turns out, Superdeath was orchestrating a dogpile of me with GT the entire time! It was on Superdeath's promise of aid that GT burned my undefended city and kicked off the war that saw him murdered by me and Ljubljana! Without Superdeath lifting a finger to help him! SD, did you intend to attack me in the back as GT thought or were you just sending him to the slaughter? Betryal, indeed! 

And then when SD was tearing through Gavagai, I attacked SD to relieve the pressure. This, to SD, was betrayal. I think there's a difference between changing one's relationship status from peace to war versus betrayal. Is every time you're attacked a betrayal? Yeah, we'd been at peace, but you were trying to orchestrate a dogpile of me and I was trying to prevent you, my neighbor, from becoming global leader. (A concern Mjmd seemed to share.) My conscience is clear.

Now, this move probably lost me the game. I should've either let SD conquer Gav and put pressure on Mjmd, or I should've attacked earlier when SD's army was in Gav's territory. I really didn't expect the Mjmd comeback, otherwise I would've gone with the first option.

Gavagai: Were you intending to attack Superdeath with me right when GT attacked you?

For this question, I had to go back into the Archives. Into the screenshot I took but didn't put into my report.

Gav wrote in his thread that he was jumping at the opportunity of dog piling Superdeath that I offered and, later, when I fought GT instead of Superdeath I was betraying him.

I went back into my diplo screenshots to set the record straight because I had forgotten the sequence of events, and, whew, what I discovered is intriguing.

Firstly, at the very same time that Superdeath is promising to join GT in a war against me, he is asking for a guarantee of peace from me so that he can attack Gavagai. (Not cropping images so you can see the turn number, but that means they're big, so they go in spoilers.)

SD, you dare talk about betrayal?! 

I tell SD that he and I can have peace while he fights Gav. (This is the first SD-Gav war. Not later one that I join.)

I promptly warn Gavagai of SD's attack:

Hey, I'm not going to attack SD, but I need to at least warn Gav that the attack is coming.

Gav then suggests that he and I fight SD in 10 turns.

I can't remember my response to this and I didn't record it. But the point of this diplo is that Gav is asking my help in this war. I'm not putting the idea in Gav's head! Betrayal, my foot! (And the fact that I don't have a recorded response makes me think I remained silent.)

Pseudo-edit: I forgot that SD warned me of GT's attack. I think I did report this in the thread. GT, you did not have the alliances you thought you had...

And the rest, as they say, is history. GT and I fought our war. Gav and SD fought theirs, on practically the exact same turn. And the game went its course. I don't often report diplo, but apparently I need to start, for the defense of my reputation!

Ricketyclick: What could I have done differently?

Don't start next to Superdeath with Praetorians.  I've also written a beginner's MP guide that you can read.  And after playing more games, some good habits will become second nature. 

Ginger: Would you have worked with me?

Sure, buddy! In fact, I was depending on you! I was willing to be the junior partner in whatever attack you had planned, either against Ljubljana or Mjmd. My question for you is whether you had actually planned an attack against either. I'm sad you disappeared when you did, because a joint attack just then would've been interesting. 


Ljubljana: Why didn't you attack me when I was fighting Ginger?

I didn't want you dead. I wanted you exhausted. I wasn't strong enough to profit from a war against you. I needed you and Ginger to wear each other down while I ate Superdeath. The Superdeath eating never occured. 

Greenline: I was in a pretty decent spot. What went wrong?

You didn't let Ginger take the first punch against Dreylin. Just like I needed to be Ginger's junior part, so did you:


You say in your thread that "Dreylin did what I was afraid of, threw a bunch of his forces at mine instead of hitting Ginger's stack at all." But look at the power numbers and look at your stack composition. Ginger had almost double the power of Dreylin. You could just sit back and wait for Dreylin to collapse and then vulture him. You weren't an equal partner in your alliance, so you didn't need to feel obligated to advance in lock step with the game-leader.

Dreylin: You and I were on opposite ends of the world, so I have no questions for you.

That's fair, pal. See you in PB81.

And now, goodnight. Ask any other questions you have quick. I'll delete my 2GB screenshot folder () before PB81 to makes space.

SHAMEFULLY LATE EDIT: Thank you, Pindicator for the map! Every player is indebted to their mapmaker!

[greenline]

Greenline: I was in a pretty decent spot. What went wrong?

You didn't let Ginger take the first punch against Dreylin. Just like I needed to be Ginger's junior part, so did you:


You say in your thread that "Dreylin did what I was afraid of, threw a bunch of his forces at mine instead of hitting Ginger's stack at all." But look at the power numbers and look at your stack composition. Ginger had almost double the power of Dreylin. You could just sit back and wait for Dreylin to collapse and then vulture him. You weren't an equal partner in your alliance, so you didn't need to feel obligated to advance in lock step with the game-leader.

That would have been smarter. But I had 'agreed' to an AI diplo promise to war against Dreylin by that time and I would have felt rude for delaying any longer.

[civac2]

Dreylin was falling back the entire lenght of his territory. If you had waited for his army to die you would have gotten 1-2 cities maybe.

[superdeath]

Nauf, im 99% sure you helped Gavagai vs me, before i helped GT vs you. Regardless, its a bigger tell of friendly relations especially after i GIFT YOU YOUR CITIES BACK. To open borders or not. As far as not doing so because you are worried i would (or wouldnt) attack mjmd thru them? 1. I dont believe i was planning on anything. 2. AT LEAST SOMETHING WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE TO HIM. All of you were far more passive towards him, than you were when i was the game leader (however brief). I dont understand it. Ive tried, but all i can think is that you guys would rather he win than me. Like point, click, that.