[Spoilers] Defining the phrase "€˜Hung Like a Horse"€™: Pb & the Kuriotates

[pocketbeetle]

Veez: awesome!

Ahahahaha....


Please, Selrahc...

I’m honestly ashamed to say I overlooked M. Keown for that important role.
I wanted deniability if Sareln confronted me, so went with Veez.
But you’re right, he would have been a much better choice!



Things to do with a Harpy:

1. Culture bomb (2.7k cp)
   Not going for culture.
   
2. Settle +3gp/+12cp
   +3gp not enough
   
3. Bulb
   With the completion of Education, bulb target switched to Drama
   
4. Trigger GA
   

Of the above, only 3) and 4) are appealing.
Triggering a GA would be useful, as I have two 1 turn switches coming up soon, namely a religion switch to RoK and a civic switch. The GA would allow me to avoid 2t of anarchy, but on the downside its just way too early. I’ll barely have any cottages down, Caledor will still be crippled, and Kwythellar will be trying to grow at the same time, which is always a conflict with the +commerce/production from a GA.
In short, I’d prefer to wait and benefit fully, including the +100% gpp at Avelorn.

So that leaves bulbing, and the usual “use a GArt to get a GArt” denial question.
Bulbing Drama will give me a free GArt, denying anyone else getting it, and gives me a free 647b tech.
Side benefits include:

• Culture slider use (meh)
  
• Theatres - an expensive building at 167h that gives little benefit without other factors (+1 happy/10% slider, +1 for Dyes, +1 for Consumption civic).
  
• Two wonders:
  • Syliven’s Perfect Lyre – a hefty 609h culture wonder
    
  • The Theatre of Dreams – 335h but requires 3 theatres and gives +1 happy in all cities.
    
  None of which float my boat.
  
• Ability to build Culture.
  Probably the only useful benefit to me. Getting the borders expanded in city 4 might be troublesome while running RoK as state religion. Rather than building a 45h RoK thane to force +13cp into the city, much easier to just build 5h worth of culture for the first pop (5/50/250/2.5k/25k).
  

So, when you’re #1 GNP, and about to found your second Academy, is it right to use bulbing for denial?
None of the other civs are in the vicinity, even the two players whose research I’ve lost track of didn’t have the necessary prereq for Drama (Festivals) when I last was reasonably certain.
Hmm.

Checking the bulb list to see what I could get with a second GArt, turns out Sanitation is #5 on the list, after Drama/Festivals/Education/Astronomy (lategame tech). Sanitation is a 690b tech, slightly more than Drama, so teching Drama for the GArt and then using that to bulb Sanitation is actually a smart move.
Am I feeling greedy?
Yeah.

So, I’m going to save the GArt for the moment, maybe use it for a GA to help self tech Drama, then use that second GArt to bulb Sanitation.
Conditional on me not getting too scared of another player researching Drama themselves.
If someone with a comparable GNP (like Bob) researches Festivals then builds up 500b+ towards a next tech, I might cave in.

[Profane]

Fishing out a pair of [SIZE="2"]binoculars[/SIZE], you focus in on the object in his paw. But...there's nothing there.
Only its paw and one digit held upright.

Does this mean the Hippus have Optics already?

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 96:

Now is a pretty good time to do some civic/religion switching.
The new GSci is on her way to Caledor, Kwythellar has a workboat heading for the Clams whereupon it’s going to grow by several pop, Avelorn is getting close to its happy cap.

So let’s do this:



Leaving Pacifism and Tribalism behind.
Next turn, the RoK thane reaches Kwythellar, and I’ll switch to state religion: Runes of Kilmorph.


Hill Giants continue to stomp along.
They now have a target:

(7:49:14 PM) pocketbeetle: Oh I met Iskender this turn btw
(7:49:22 PM) pocketbeetle: Found him with a workboat
(7:49:26 PM) Selrahc: Finally
(7:49:36 PM) pocketbeetle: yeah. Still can't talk to Bob though
(7:49:55 PM) Selrahc: He's got a scout near my territory, so it won't be long.
(7:49:56 PM) pocketbeetle: Where did his scout go in the end?
(7:50:33 PM) Selrahc: Around the north, then down through the small gap between my core and the ex elven lands
(7:50:46 PM) pocketbeetle: Ah k, so South now of the capital?
(7:50:57 PM) Selrahc: Yes
(7:51:01 PM) pocketbeetle: K thanks.
(7:51:09 PM) pocketbeetle: I really hope it doesn't get eaten by a rogue Hill Giant
(7:51:19 PM) Selrahc: Or... south of Jingle Bells, will be south of capital next turn.
(7:51:32 PM) Selrahc: It looks pretty safe.
(7:51:40 PM) pocketbeetle: Good good
(7:51:47 PM) Selrahc: Hanging around 1tile from my borders
(7:51:49 PM) pocketbeetle: But you never know in these uncertain times

He’s definitely not checking the turnlog regularly, if at all.


Worker-wise, the two North of Caledor are roading/mining.
Bob Marley on the Sheep N of Avelorn moved NW and put in 1 turn of cottaging, will move 1N next turn and start cottaging a gl tile.




Demographics:

]

• Selrahc gained 2(!) points for cultural control of the base tile of Gereth Minar/Twelve Nights.
  
• Included the power graph to illustrate the lack of a power jump after building the Giants.
  

Definitely time for a Veez update!

[pocketbeetle]

Does this mean the Hippus have Optics already?

I just knew someone would catch me on that! ^^
Couldn't think of how else to do it - an apprentice mage maybe?
Oh well.


After receiving that note from Veez, Selrahc decided to try and pump me for information on why I was doing this:

(12:15:54 PM) Selrahc: So what's the big deal about keeping Cull alive?
(12:18:17 PM) pocketbeetle: Hi
(12:18:24 PM) Selrahc: Hey
(12:18:49 PM) pocketbeetle: oh nothing much. Centaurs Nobles have been up my ass about Veez's little plot
(12:19:02 PM) pocketbeetle: Saving the world, being Good, all that stuff
(12:19:34 PM) Selrahc: Hm. Alright.
(12:20:01 PM) Selrahc: I'm definitely going to be razing the capital though.
(12:20:27 PM) pocketbeetle: What? That's awful. Think of all the poor dwarves killed
(12:21:01 PM) Selrahc: Well they shouldn't have messed with the Illians.
(12:21:30 PM) Selrahc: Just send some humanitarian aid to help the refugees and sit back and watch the slaughter.
(12:21:47 PM) pocketbeetle: What better way to instill fear than to display complete indifference to whether they keep their cities or not!
(12:21:58 PM) pocketbeetle: humanitarian aid is good
(12:22:33 PM) Selrahc: The priests have orders only to kill those not showing due deference to the Winter King. Casualties should be kept to sustainable level.
(12:23:13 PM) pocketbeetle: Obviously I wholly disapprove, but my principle mission is that I want the Dwarves to live.
(12:23:37 PM) pocketbeetle: Keep in mind it may be harder to get Cull to sign a peace treaty if he has nothing left invested in the game
(12:23:48 PM) pocketbeetle: More chance of him going kamikaze
(12:24:25 PM) pocketbeetle: Obviously I'm leaving any negotiations with Cull up to you two
(12:25:36 PM) Selrahc: It would be a lot easier if I'd had any meaningful negotiations with him up to this point.
(12:25:48 PM) Selrahc: Do you mind if Veez gets put in his place a little?
(12:26:22 PM) Selrahc: Because I'm thinking the Illians can whip up something a little more effective than bear traps
(12:27:44 PM) pocketbeetle: Bear traps?!? I have no idea where Veez is at this time, but obviously I care for the wellbeing of all Kuriotates citizens. Particularly Veez as he can be useful occasionally.
If he's raided your drinks cabinet yet again, feel free to install proper security measures next time
(12:27:57 PM) pocketbeetle: lethal ones
(12:28:22 PM) Selrahc: Alright.

Realised I'd maybe been a bit dismissive of his initial question especially when, to the best of my knowledge, he's been pretty forthcoming with me.
So:

(1:45:21 PM) pocketbeetle: Oh sorry, rereading that maybe I was a bit vague about why I'd prefer Cull alive
(1:45:47 PM) pocketbeetle: Ine simple answer would be, he's likely to run RoK. Which would help me for a while
(1:45:50 PM) pocketbeetle: *One
(1:45:54 PM) Selrahc: And?
(1:46:23 PM) pocketbeetle: Secondly, I think Sareln is close to Bob
(1:47:49 PM) Selrahc: That everything?
(1:48:19 PM) pocketbeetle: Nope. But that's my main two
(1:48:37 PM) Selrahc: Alright, fair enough
(1:48:52 PM) pocketbeetle: I'd prefer you to have a supporter in Cull than Bob have a supporter in Sareln
(1:50:14 PM) Selrahc: I'm kind of vaguely writing up a reply to the offer.
(1:50:23 PM) Selrahc: Expect it at some point...
(1:50:26 PM) Selrahc: In the future.
(1:50:33 PM) Selrahc: Of this afternoon.
(1:51:17 PM) pocketbeetle: no rush. I take it the save hasn't reached you. Hve you tried sending anything to Cull?
(1:51:39 PM) Selrahc: Not yet
(1:51:46 PM) Selrahc: He does still have 8 defenders
(1:52:16 PM) Selrahc: I was kind of off in my first estimate, and he's brought a few more into the city.
(1:52:19 PM) pocketbeetle: okay. How many are you taking out each turn?
(1:52:32 PM) Selrahc: 2-4
(1:52:40 PM) Selrahc: Killed 4 last turn
(1:53:29 PM) pocketbeetle: Okay. Well Cull has been playing the save around this time for the past week. So feel free to sound him out
(1:54:04 PM) Selrahc: Right. I was planning on waiting until his situation was at least a little more dire though.
(1:54:11 PM) Selrahc: Maybe when he had 2-3 defenders.
(1:54:15 PM) pocketbeetle: I told him I would do my best to get you to offer him a peace deal of some type. Details are all yours.
(1:54:31 PM) pocketbeetle: I think if he's losing multiple warriors per turn then he knows its dire?
(1:55:31 PM) Selrahc: Hmm. I'm going to do at least one more turn of attacks before I offer him anything.
(1:56:04 PM) pocketbeetle: Okay.

[Maksim]

Ever since the Ratman’s last unwelcome visit to your bedroom, you’ve taken it upon yourself to have…precautions…installed.
It’s just a shame that it had to find the smallest ones nearest the door first.

(12:25:48 PM) Selrahc: Do you mind if Veez gets put in his place a little?
(12:26:22 PM) Selrahc: Because I'm thinking the Illians can whip up something a little more effective than bear traps

Hmm... Something tells me that perhaps Veez's style is going unappreciated by fellow monarchs. And there is a certain whisper going round - would Veez be a relative of that foul creature known only as a Mary Sue?

[Profane]

I just knew someone would catch me on that! ^^
Couldn't think of how else to do it - an apprentice mage maybe?
Oh well.

I suppose I forgot that binoculars are fine too, if it's just a 'relic from ages past'.

[Jabah]

Do you still have that dungeon 5E of Caledor and that shipwreck SSW of Kwy...
When do you think you will 'visit' them and with what unit (and back-up in case of wrong results). In general what is your relation with lairs ?

[novice]

PB, your thread is a delightfully Machiavellian read.

I seem to remember that you are attentive to spelling and grammar. If so, it's "principal aim", not "principle aim".

Keep up the good work.

[pocketbeetle]

Oooh questions. =)

Hmm... Something tells me that perhaps Veez's style is going unappreciated by fellow monarchs. And there is a certain whisper going round - would Veez be a relative of that foul creature known only as a Mary Sue?

I haven't heard of that term before, had to go look it up.
I think it's undeniable, I definitely like Veez too much.

However it's important to remember that the purpose of that character is not self-aggrandisement.
He has two functions:

1. Veez allows me to do things that I should not really be doing, namely evil and underhanded stuff.
   
2. Humour, allows me to set up situations such as the rat traps and drinks cabinet.
   

I similarly agree with your comment that Selrahc is not 100% happy - it was first evidenced in his comment about having no choice after he tried to have Veez arrested.
I maybe made a mistake by having Veez meet Selrahc directly, should have been an Illian guardcaptain or something. I think his capacity for being made to look silly is a little less than mine.
But despite that, he's played along so far, so I've got nothing but praise.

That was also why I let Selrahc have an open response instead of trying to force choices on him in the last communication.
The eventual direction he takes it is not one I would have chosen or am 100% keen on, but that's the risk you take when giving somebody else free reign.
It's also for the better I think, as in part it acts as a natural check to your Mary Sue point.
It would also seem that he wants to introduce a new character of his own, so more power to him.

I suppose I forgot that binoculars are fine too, if it's just a 'relic from ages past'.

That's the spirit!
As above, I'm in it more for the humour and just being plain daft at times.

Do you still have that dungeon 5E of Caledor and that shipwreck SSW of Kwy...
When do you think you will 'visit' them and with what unit (and back-up in case of wrong results). In general what is your relation with lairs ?

As you've seen really, I tend to play fast and loose with lairs in the early game (particularly if they're far away from me), simply because the upside is so much greater.
A tech or GP is worth so much at that stage, whereas if I were to get a free tech now it would be 'nice', but not so game altering as 50 turns ago.
Even if one gets unlucky and a Hill Giant + scorpion spawns on T15, they're still going to stay away from your cultural borders for a while.
It's only the high strength, aggressive spawns that you need to watch out for.

I've also been really fortunate so far with events in this game. A GPro and GArt event? It's a touch unfair truthfully.
So even counting the Conan attack early on, karma would imply that I've got a couple of bad rolls coming soon.

For those reasons above, I'm going to leave the shipwreck at Kwythellar untouched for a long time yet, until I have a decent garrison and a couple of boats/water walking Drown/Stygian guard.
Similarly the dungeon East of Caledor is being saved.
I was worried about Selrahc popping that with his Priests/ a warrior in retaliation for Vanilla Ice's actions. He could still be planning to do that, but popping a dungeon -within- someone's borders is a lot more...hmm let's use a fancy word...egregious than popping one just outside imo.
I also plan to plant a settlement in the river bend NW of the Horses asap, which should then seal off any such attempt.

Meanwhile, the Giants, Vanilla Ice, and the spare warrior in Avelorn will be heading to pop the two dungeons South of Avelorn.
The dungeon near Vanilla Ice because it's nicely placed, just outside the borders and away from Caledor & co, and the dungeon to the South of that because it conflicts with my (so far) best candidate for city 4.
I'm expecting some free xp from them at the very least. I'll do some tests to see which unit is best to use.

I *may* send a lone Giant to munch on Bob's scout in the area.
Haven't decided yet.
And yes, I know Bob will probably figure out it was me. I'm not sure I care.
I think he is rapidly becoming my public enemy #1, and that's before we've even started properly talking.

For the dungeon being saved, I'm tempted to use someone like Hemah later on - the best rolls come from using hero units.
But the chance of him getting a horrible promotion such as 'crazed' (lose control randomly) puts me off quite a lot.
That would be pretty devastating.

PB, your thread is a delightfully Machiavellian read.
I seem to remember that you are attentive to spelling and grammar. If so, it's "principal aim", not "principle aim".
Keep up the good work.

Now that's a proper spelling/grammar error!
Definitely worth a cookie:

Thankyou.

[Maksim]

I think it's undeniable, I definitely like Veez too much.

Well, don't let it go to his head - he ain't the only inhabitant of your empire.

And now, a few random questions:

1. Can I ask for your estimate of what techs other players have? I know you do an update whenever somebody gains a new tech, but I'm not sure I'm following what their overall total is. Also, what you estimate their research potential to be (i.e. how many RP per turn, on average).

2. What is the game plan regarding Hippus? Your greetings were unorthodox, to say the least.

3. Seeing this earlier up-thread:

There’s no real reason for Sareln to be placing that much road, the forests on the hills combined with Elf two movement in trees should have provided all the mobility necessary. A single line through the rice to connect the cities was all he needed imo.

Additionally, 2E of Thariss offscreen, there’s a pastured Sheep, which I assume is the reason why Sareln went for AH early on.
Slight mistake I’d suggest, when the flood plains SW of Thariss is still unfarmed (assuming it wasn’t pillaged by Selrahc).

Seeing Sareln's land, would you also have gone for an early Animal Husbandry, were you in Sareln's position? Also, had you been in his position and noticed Selrahc' Priest gambit, what would you have done?