[Spoilers] Defining the phrase "€˜Hung Like a Horse"€™: Pb & the Kuriotates

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 112:

Quiet turn.
Settler moves into position, Hill Giant moves adjacent to Hippus borders.
More interestingly, the battle for the South has begun.



The Calabim have declared war on Iskender, who in turn has used the Hippus worldspell in response.

The timing of Warcry seems premature.
Bob declaring now probably means he has only just entered Hippus borders.
Surely Iskender could have waited a turn or two more first? Especially if he’s abandoning a city?
Anyway, so long as Iskender doesn’t fold, it’s all good.
I’m probably going to stick that Giant in his capital with the aim of making sure he can reach Archery.

Workers continue to run around, the new worker at Kwythellar, Baghdad Bob, has moved 2N into the plains forest to lumbermill that.
GArt moved out of Caledor, he’ll head to the fourth city in case I need an emergency border expansion.



Clicking end turn completed a Hunting Lodge in Kwythellar with plenty of overflow for a 1t OO temple next.
Another settler completed in Avelorn - I’m liking the 2t settlers, shame it won’t last.

Ran 100% gold because I want to upgrade Vanilla Ice next turn.


Diplo:

PM from DaveV:

Hi,

Thanks for letting my scout move through your territory. I owe you a favor.
I declared war on the Hippus this turn, after several provocations on their part. Here's hoping for a short and successful conflict.

DaveV

Hi DaveV,

Not a problem at all, happy to help.

Care to elaborate on the ‘provocations’?
The Hippus are not that far away from me also, so any information is welcome.

Regards,
Pb, Innocent Boy-King.

[Maksim]

So, is the new city built yet? Did you go for the floodplain option?

The maintenance costs must be quite nasty...

[pocketbeetle]

So, is the new city built yet? Did you go for the floodplain option?
The maintenance costs must be quite nasty...

Awww, my first “Wtf, update now biatch!” reminder.
And yes, good guess, the maintenance costs are pretty shocking. ^^


I’ve been wanting to give tscharlii’s post the decent response it deserves, but unfortunately I’ve been a bit busy.
So apologies, but you’re going to be getting the cheap and cheerful option.

Feel free to remind yourself of this post and tscharlii’s.

The choices boil down to this:

• Orange is a blatant ‘no’, on the grounds of being completely indefensible.
  
  
• Blue/Purple is okay, but all resources are in the third ring and it has virtually no riverside gl tiles to potentially farm or grow from in the short term.
  • The Gems resource that appeared to the South is within it’s third ring, but imo is not a net positive.
    That area could be a the site of a cultural clash with Iskender, potential settling conflict etc. I’d rather claim the Gems with a settlement.
    
  
  
  
• Which leaves Green.
  

Tscharlii: you suggest 1E of Green dot as an alternative site.
You’re completely right that it has better long term potential, swapping the coastal tiles for decent gl/plains.
In the same post however, you also highlighted it’s downfall: namely culture and losing the floodplain.

1E green, however, is nicely surrounded by peaks and rivers, which makes it easy to defend, and it is, last but not least, 1 square closer to Bob.

(Although it must be said the reasoning above nearly changed my mind. )

Firstly, I’m intending to get culture into the fourth city the hard way, namely a Monument and later on an OO temple.
As such, culture growth is going to be slow early on (one of the reasons I’m moving the GArt down there for an emergency border pop if needed), and I definitely do not need to have all my food resources in the third ring.

Secondly, losing the floodplain was touched upon, and that’s probably a bad idea. In FFH2 a floodplain is pretty much the equivalent of a food resource (6f farmed ~Rice/Pigs) which would not only impact long term size, but also early growth.
Admittedly I’ve been slow in getting this fourth city up, pretty much everyone except Cull and Sareln have beaten me to it. Now that’s okay, I always am slow after the initial expansion phase: I like my GNP too much to wreck it.
But that means I can’t afford this fourth city to be stuck at size 3 for the next 20 turns.

And that’s where 1E of Green fails: it’s slow off the mark.
No floodplain to instantly work, only one non jungled riverside gl tile to farm, and one forest to chop.
Compare this to Green, who has three riverside gl tiles to farm (can you find them?), the floodplains, plus three forests to chop (at 13h each = 39h = free monument asap) and we pretty much have a winner.

Overlapwise, Green conflicts with two tiles from Avelorn, the glf and plf (the desert hill is uncontested).
Those tiles will be lumbermilled because Avelorn needs the production, but the gl one may be chopped and cottaged in the future.
Not ideal, I don’t like, but it’s workable.

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 113:

So, where to start?
How about with the newest (and last) Kurio megacity:



Working that plains forest for one turn, because I couldn’t help myself.
Next turn the fp farm completes, as will the road connecting Karond Kar to Avelorn for another 2c foreign trade route.


Meanwhile the Eel welcoming party moved into position.



The settler completed in Avelorn last turn will sleep for one turn, its planned path outlined to C1 ends on a hill and would be visible to the Calabim scout.
I expect Bob/Dave to figure out who Northern Giant’s owner is, but equally there’s no need to raise suspicions by sending an unescorted settler into the killzone beforehand.


More fun, as Kwythellar’s completed Hunting Lodge last turn allows Vanilla Ice a new change of loincloth! (And some pointy sticks).



He’ll be off to Calabim lands asap, to act as a mobile Hawk platform.



Southern Giant moved 1SE further into Iskender’s land and found a fortload of Goblins.
At this point, I should tell you that the turnlog shows the Hippus and Calabim have signed peace (wtf). I don’t know what’s going on though, and so stuck to the current plan.
Just hope those Goblins don’t decide to attack out.



Clicking end turn completed an OO temple in Kwythellar, the Tailor in Caledor, and ended the Kuriotates’ first Golden Age.

I decided to go for a second turn of 100% gold, because as Maksim pointed out, maintenance took a 15 gpt jump with the founding of Karond Kar. (100% science up from a -12 gpt deficit to -27 gpt).
Not unexpected, but once I can get Caledor back to working its hamlets(!) things should be fine.

You’ll also notice the various cX signs that have sprung up, and that Avelorn is 1t from completing another settler…
Settlements for everyone!
(Although I will be interrupting to build another worker.)


Demographics:

• Selrahc gained +1 pop (somewhere). Do we care? Nope.
  (Saying that, it could also be him gaining an 11 point tech and whipping 1 pop away. I don't have time at the moment to go through the pop numbers and figure it out.)
  
• Iskender gained a 22 point tech.
  Assuming he was telling the truth, that should be Archery.
  
• Cull gained a pop point from founding his third city.
  No idea where it is, but the highly original name for it is…Halowell, again.
  

[darrelljs]

I forgot, what's your adaptive trait right now?

Darrell

[pocketbeetle]

I forgot, what's your adaptive trait right now?

Darrell

Financial.

That's why the market is placed high up on Karond Kar's queue - at 20 hammers it's just soooo cheap.
I'm wondering if it should be ahead of the granary tbh.

[pocketbeetle]

Diplo:

Let’s get a handle on what’s been happening in the South.
First, two repeats:

Hi,

Thanks for letting my scout move through your territory. I owe you a favor.

I declared war on the Hippus this turn, after several provocations on their part. Here's hoping for a short and successful conflict.

DaveV

Hi DaveV,

Not a problem at all, happy to help. [img]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Kevin/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/02/clip_image001.gif[/img]

Care to elaborate on the ‘provocations’?
The Hippus are not that far away from me also, so any information is welcome.

Regards,
Pb, Innocent Boy-King.

The provocations: twice, Iskender explored lairs very close to our borders. The first time, Bob asked him nicely nicely not to explore it. Iskender essentially said "you can't stop me", and explored it. The second time, Bob said we would consider an act of war if he explored it, and Iskender did anyway.

To pay back that favor I mentioned before: I signed a long-term non-aggression pact with Iskender. During a chat with Bob, Iskender said he has no interest in attacking Sareln. That leaves you or Cull as his likely targets; from what I know of the map layout, I'd consider you much more likely as a target. So, beware!

DaveV, disgraced former hero of the Bannor

The Hippus have used their world spell.
As Iskender and I had already agreed, I offered him a peace treaty on my turn. If he accepts peace, he has a safe front with me, and a bunch of units with a military promotion that wears off over time.

I'm not sure how your defenses stand, but I'd suggest you do what you can to improve them over the next turn or two.

I can see now that Dave and Bob are very well suited.

Dave is trying to get me worried about Iskender, completing ignoring the ‘coincidence’ of Calabim declaring war on Hippus -> next turn Hippus using Warcry.
That’s not even factoring in that Iskender, unless Selrahc has sneakily traded maps with him, doesn’t even know where my borders are.

This calls for a lukewarm reply:

Hi DaveV,

That doesn't sound good.
I guess I'll definitely have to start improving my power rating soon!

Thanks for the heads up,
Pb

Dave then tries to pile on the paranoia.
Sorry, but that’s my job.

No offense meant, but you don't realize how "not good" it is if you're talking about doing something "soon". There is only "right now" and "oh, I wish".

Iskender showed me his probable attack stack last turn: he had 11 warriors with the warcry promotion, 4 attack and 2 move. They should be able to move from the eastern side of his empire to the western side in 2 turns, so you'll be seeing them the turn after next if that's where he's headed. He may not attack you, but it sure seems like the most likely thing to me.

He has a limited time to use his Warcry before it wears off, and you and I are his closest targets, and apparently he has just signed peace with me.

Given all this drama, I decided to go off and chat with Iskender, at least find out why they’ve signed peace so quickly.

(7:23:33 PM) pocketbeetle: Hey You around?
(7:23:51 PM) Iskender: i am indeed
(7:24:17 PM) Iskender: got my message?
(7:24:19 PM) pocketbeetle: Just letting you know that's definitely my Giant moving to the North
(7:24:26 PM) pocketbeetle: mmm? message?
(7:24:43 PM) Iskender: sent via email
(7:24:49 PM) pocketbeetle: sec
(7:25:00 PM) Iskender: to this address
(7:25:08 PM) pocketbeetle: no email here Which email address?
(7:25:19 PM) Iskender: XXX
(7:25:28 PM) pocketbeetle: Ah I know what's happened, sorry I don't check that one It's just for chat
(7:25:49 PM) Iskender: oh, I forgot you use the external client
(7:25:55 PM) Iskender: mind if I pasted it here?
(7:26:07 PM) pocketbeetle: yeah go for it
(7:26:18 PM) Iskender:

Dear Pocketbeetle

As you can see in the logs, the war between me and Calabim is over.
They approached one of my cities with a stack of bloodpets and made an
offer that I found acceptable. We agreed to have a NAP until turn 200
and established a settling border. I wish the NAP was shorter, but I
wanted that peace badly. Casting Warcry was a mistake on my part, or
rather a consequence of a series of previous mistakes.

In a critical moment I asked you for help and you offered it. I
believe this giant could've turned the tables in that war. I said thay
you would gain an ally in the south and I stand by it. If some day
you'll find yourself in trouble you can count on me.

The stack that paid me a visit was only 10 bloodpets. I saw another
three garrisoned in Acaia, his westernmost city. That's only 39k of
Calabim total power. I have no idea where's the rest of their troops,
they might be up to something. I have some 10 warriors with warcry in
case you needed assistance but the spell is wearing off already.

In five turns I'll have a coastal city, we could open borders and
establish a trade route.

Cheers, Iskender

(7:27:09 PM) pocketbeetle: Oooh interesting. That's very nicely written
(7:27:27 PM) pocketbeetle: Thanks, I wanted to help you, and I'm glad you didn't have to lose a city
(7:27:35 PM) pocketbeetle: Shame about warcry
(7:27:42 PM) Iskender: indeed
(7:28:15 PM) Iskender: so your giant is free to catch butterflies in the jungle or whatever he was doing before
(7:28:31 PM) pocketbeetle: lolol. Well he just moved next to a Goblin fort with a ton of archers
(7:28:31 PM) Iskender: any idea how to use ten warriors with warcry?
(7:28:42 PM) pocketbeetle: They're not going to attack him are they?
(7:28:42 PM) Iskender: nice fort, isn't it?
(7:28:51 PM) Iskender: who knows...
(7:28:52 PM) pocketbeetle: Have they been spewing out??
(7:29:13 PM) Iskender: no, they just hold
(7:29:23 PM) Iskender: a bunch of scared goblin archers
(7:29:28 PM) Iskender: got any good odds on them?
(7:29:33 PM) pocketbeetle: hmm, k thanks. I'll move him back North then next turn, assuming you definitely don't want him?
(7:29:37 PM) pocketbeetle: No something like 13%
(7:29:42 PM) pocketbeetle: I did check =D
(7:29:47 PM) Iskender: hey 13% not bad
(7:29:53 PM) pocketbeetle: bleh! 110 h unit!
(7:30:08 PM) pocketbeetle: Do you trust Bob?
(7:30:15 PM) Iskender: no
(7:30:29 PM) Iskender: wasting warcry was the consequence of me not trusting him
(7:30:36 PM) pocketbeetle: If you expect him to attack again in next 10 turns, I'm happy to keep moving down
(7:30:47 PM) Iskender: in a moment when he (and Dave) were sincere
(7:31:32 PM) Iskender: i don't think he'll attack
(7:31:45 PM) Iskender: would he break a NAP?
(7:32:22 PM) Iskender: he had an opportunity to make more damage now than he would in 10 turns. i'm not sure if he realizes that though
(7:32:47 PM) pocketbeetle: Well I thought he was attacking to get control of the whole South.
How much land have you had to give up? Has he got enough to keep him occupied?
(7:33:42 PM) Iskender: i also thought he's completely after me. but he just moved his stack and offered peace
(7:33:57 PM) Iskender: i'm sure he's up to something
(7:34:11 PM) Iskender: unless he disbanded 50k of his power this turn
(7:34:51 PM) Iskender: they eat a lot of his maintenance along with 6+ workers idling around
(7:35:12 PM) pocketbeetle: Hmm. Strange. Have you included say 2 warriors per city in your calculation, that's another 4 x 2 = 8 x 3 = 24k
(7:35:29 PM) pocketbeetle: ie city garrison
(7:35:50 PM) Iskender: i saw 30k + 9k garrison of Acaia
(7:36:08 PM) Iskender: still ~50k left
(7:36:22 PM) Iskender: well, ~40k
(7:36:52 PM) pocketbeetle: Okay. So 3 warriors in Acacia? So that leaves 3 other cities, say 3 warriors in each, 3 x 3 x 3k = 27k. Plus power from pop and Bronzeworking tech
(7:38:03 PM) Iskender: 3 per city is too much i reckon. he's safe from south and southeast so he could leave as few as one per city
(7:38:42 PM) Iskender: and he continues to spam them like crazy
(7:38:53 PM) Iskender: maybe he's hoarding $ to upgrade them to moroi at once
(7:38:54 PM) pocketbeetle: Okay. It is strange I agree.
(7:39:11 PM) pocketbeetle: Is T200 not quite long?
(7:39:34 PM) Iskender: it is
(7:40:12 PM) Iskender: but i think i was in no position to negotiate
(7:40:23 PM) Iskender: i could've taken a stab at shortening it though
(7:40:58 PM) Iskender: damn, it is long!
(7:41:02 PM) Iskender: i'll have magnadine already
(7:41:33 PM) pocketbeetle: Don't beat yourself up. You avoided losing any cities. Assuming you still have a decent amount of land to expand into, it could go okay
(7:41:56 PM) pocketbeetle: How about Hidden Nationality units. Anything reachable that you could maybe 'lose track of' to your East?
(7:43:36 PM) Iskender: i'm not sure i understand
(7:43:51 PM) Iskender: there are some skeletons and those goblins
(7:44:50 PM) pocketbeetle: I'm trying to think of any Hidden Nationality units that you could build. Hidden nationalities don't require war declarations, so maybe that would mean you wouldn't be breaking any official NAP?
(7:45:02 PM) pocketbeetle: Do assassins get Hidden Nationality?
(7:45:20 PM) Iskender: i think only Esus units
(7:45:30 PM) Iskender: a nice workaround
(7:45:50 PM) Iskender: esus horse archers would be obvious, but that's a good excuse for breaking a NAP
(7:45:57 PM) pocketbeetle: Oh well, just a thought. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to get you to go to war right after signing peace
(7:46:10 PM) pocketbeetle: I like the sound of the coastal city soon
(7:46:23 PM) pocketbeetle: I don't have sailing, but will try and get it before too long
(7:46:44 PM) Iskender: no sailing? man, you lag in techs
(7:46:49 PM) pocketbeetle: =D
(7:46:52 PM) Iskender: get some research already
(7:46:52 PM) pocketbeetle: I know
(7:46:56 PM) pocketbeetle: lolol
(7:47:12 PM) Iskender: now seriously
(7:47:24 PM) Iskender: you know what happened do Spullla in RBPB2?
(7:47:33 PM) pocketbeetle: Just a heads up - I settled my last megacity this turn.
(7:47:37 PM) pocketbeetle: Sort of - go on?
(7:48:16 PM) Iskender: i think someone (Bob?) will try to organize a dogpile soon
(7:48:25 PM) Iskender: just my guess
(7:48:36 PM) Iskender: but i'm not going to take part in it
(7:48:50 PM) pocketbeetle: I hope not And I'm glad, thankyou
(7:49:12 PM) pocketbeetle: Some information: Between you and me only?
(7:49:31 PM) Iskender: yes?
(7:49:48 PM) pocketbeetle: Dave has been sending me messages saying you're intending to attack me, that's why you cast Warcry
(7:50:09 PM) pocketbeetle: I don't believe him. Him declaring war, then you casting warcry seems pretty clear cut to me
(7:50:50 PM) Iskender: and what would i do with this warcry dozen of tiles away?
(7:51:13 PM) Iskender: charge seeing as it wears off?
(7:51:23 PM) Iskender: i wish i didn't cast it
(7:51:34 PM) Iskender: it offers so much tactical possibilities
(7:51:39 PM) pocketbeetle: lol. We're not that far away. I settled my fourth megacity like I said, and because of close border with Selrahc, I had to go South.
(7:51:45 PM) pocketbeetle: Yeah it is a good worldspell
(7:51:57 PM) Iskender: you bet it is
(7:52:09 PM) pocketbeetle: But now I have all my cities, just no culture settlements from now on
(7:52:42 PM) Iskender: so how far south will it reach? will you reach those gems in the jungle?
(7:53:06 PM) pocketbeetle: My fourth city? Nowhere near claiming the gems no.
(7:53:29 PM) pocketbeetle: I made sure not to get close, at some point we should discuss that area
(7:53:42 PM) pocketbeetle: Btw - did you see the gems tile to the north of you grew jungle this turn/last turn?
(7:53:59 PM) Iskender: no
(7:54:19 PM) pocketbeetle: There are two gems right next to each other, I'd say (North?) of your capital
(7:54:21 PM) Iskender: too bad
(7:54:29 PM) Iskender: yes, those 2
(7:54:39 PM) Iskender: one grassland or plains, one jungle
(7:54:42 PM) pocketbeetle: One was jungled, one wasn't, and was in your borders. It grew jungle this turn/last turn
(7:54:46 PM) pocketbeetle: exactly yes
(7:54:46 PM) Iskender: the other one got jungled?
(7:54:49 PM) pocketbeetle: yes
(7:55:05 PM) Iskender: oh well
(7:55:11 PM) pocketbeetle: Maybe we should ask Bob to chop it for us =D
(7:55:11 PM) Iskender: first pigs now jungle
(7:56:52 PM) Iskender: funny thing, i believed selrahc was my immediate neighbor to the north
(7:57:15 PM) Iskender: this is what you get when you delay scouting until getting hunting...
(7:58:01 PM) pocketbeetle: Mmm sort of, I'm stuck on an outcropping. Selrahc is probably expanding to his East, all that land Sareln used to have
(7:58:04 PM) Iskender: i'm screwed
(7:58:13 PM) Iskender: i've run out of neighbors to harass
(7:58:48 PM) pocketbeetle: Oh no, don't worry. If you're thinking of doing some mercenary behaviour, I'm sure there's room somewhere
(7:59:22 PM) pocketbeetle: But like I say, I think we should try to get a trade route between us sooner rather than later. Either by coast and Sailing or road.
But I'm glad you've got peace, but keep your eye on Dave/Bob, just in case
(7:59:24 PM) Iskender: i am indeed
(8:00:01 PM) Iskender: i'll build a road to those gems, but later than the coastal city
(8:00:19 PM) pocketbeetle: Sure, no rush.

Interesting chat.

I’ll summarise at the end, but at this point Bob came online also and contacted me.

(7:34:10 PM) BobChillingworth: so apparently Dave is trying to save your life
(7:34:16 PM) BobChillingworth: what a pal!
(7:34:37 PM) BobChillingworth: I told him "don't bother, PB is a hopeless cause"
(7:34:51 PM) BobChillingworth: but he was all like "no I HAVE TO WARN HIM"
(7:37:33 PM) pocketbeetle: lolol, gimme a sec.
(8:01:07 PM) pocketbeetle: Sorry about the wait dude
(8:01:35 PM) pocketbeetle: Was interrogating Iskender.
(8:01:50 PM) pocketbeetle: I've never been able to carry out two conversations at once, and Dave managed to get me worried enough to ask around
(8:01:51 PM) BobChillingworth: oh np
(8:02:54 PM) BobChillingworth: hopefully diplo with Dave and I won't be too confusing- I already asked him if he wanted me to step aside, since I don't really know what's going on beyond what he posts and to avoid mixed messages, but he said he doesn't mind
(8:02:59 PM) BobChillingworth: I think he dislikes chats
(8:03:12 PM) BobChillingworth: so I guess I'm now the "voice of Sauron"
(8:03:48 PM) BobChillingworth: anyway, so is he going to attack you or what?
(8:04:13 PM) pocketbeetle: It may be a touch confusing, have you tried getting him on gchat?
(8:04:25 PM) pocketbeetle: I don't know. He says not
(8:04:37 PM) pocketbeetle: But then, anyone sensible would say that whatever
(8:05:13 PM) BobChillingworth: dunno about him using g-talk; I assume he knows it exists but prefers to stick with yahoo for who knows what reason
(8:05:22 PM) pocketbeetle: yuck!
(8:05:55 PM) pocketbeetle: That's okay though. You like diplo don't you?
(8:06:34 PM) BobChillingworth: yeah. But it is difficult to comment on the game without actually being able to refer to a turn
(8:06:55 PM) BobChillingworth: anyway, this wasn't about me, are your defenses solid?
(8:07:08 PM) pocketbeetle: Hmm. All the more reason to go try Civ4 on your laptop!
(8:07:23 PM) BobChillingworth: Iskender popped his worldspell apparently after we made peace
(8:07:35 PM) BobChillingworth: given the large number of warriors he possesses
(8:07:35 PM) pocketbeetle: Really? hmmm
(8:07:40 PM) BobChillingworth: and your relative proximity
(8:07:49 PM) BobChillingworth: Dave thought you were the next obvious target
(8:07:53 PM) BobChillingworth: I am inclined to concur
(8:08:28 PM) pocketbeetle: It is worrying without a doubt. But I'm not -that- close. Selrahc is roughly equal distance maybe?
(8:08:34 PM) BobChillingworth: since you're not really has much a threat has the hippus (no, uh, offense), makes sense for us to warn you
(8:08:37 PM) BobChillingworth: as*
(8:08:51 PM) BobChillingworth: selrahc is known to have a powerful military though
(8:09:00 PM) pocketbeetle: Whattt??? Not a threat? My centaur captain will trample you for that insult!
(8:09:12 PM) pocketbeetle: (If I had a centaur captain that is)
(8:09:15 PM) BobChillingworth: it could be directed to sareln, but Iskender has already been amply warned about that
(8:09:23 PM) BobChillingworth: besides, there'd be no point
(8:09:36 PM) BobChillingworth: Cull is way too far away
(8:09:40 PM) pocketbeetle: why no point?
(8:09:49 PM) BobChillingworth: what would he get out of it?
(8:10:02 PM) BobChillingworth: he couldn't expect to hold either of sareln's two cities
(8:10:04 PM) pocketbeetle: Pillage gold? New city? resources?
(8:10:10 PM) pocketbeetle: Are they too far away?
(8:10:24 PM) BobChillingworth: both of sareln's cities are distant, and both are right next to my borders
(8:10:45 PM) BobChillingworth: besides I'd have to declare on Iskender again to defend my vassal... er, buddy
(8:10:53 PM) pocketbeetle: lol
(8:11:54 PM) pocketbeetle: hmmm. How logn term is your NAP with Iskender?
(8:13:09 PM) BobChillingworth: pretty long I think
(8:13:24 PM) BobChillingworth: I personally would urge dave to break it if sareln was attacked
(8:13:44 PM) BobChillingworth: and I've let Iskender know that I'd have no problem doing whatever it took to keep sareln alive
(8:14:00 PM) BobChillingworth: but he assured me that he has no intentions on him anyway
(8:14:16 PM) pocketbeetle: So, I'm confused dude
(8:14:58 PM) pocketbeetle: From an outside oersoective, it seems to me you built a shit ton of units, declared war, and then have settled for a long term nap...for what?
(8:15:13 PM) pocketbeetle: yuck cant type. *perspective
(8:15:23 PM) BobChillingworth: about what
(8:15:44 PM) pocketbeetle: what? just because he explored a lair or two?
(8:15:48 PM) BobChillingworth: oh well
(8:15:48 PM) BobChillingworth: I was upset
(8:15:51 PM) BobChillingworth: yeah
(8:15:56 PM) BobChillingworth: don't fuck with the calabim
(8:15:58 PM) BobChillingworth: :D
(8:15:59 PM) pocketbeetle: lol
(8:16:12 PM) pocketbeetle: I shall rely that to my military advisor
(8:16:17 PM) pocketbeetle: *relay
(8:16:32 PM) BobChillingworth: there's plenty of other uses for the bloodpets
(8:16:37 PM) BobChillingworth: so not a waste
(8:16:54 PM) BobChillingworth: I can now safely explore the lairs myself, by surrounding all spawn point tiles
(8:17:04 PM) BobChillingworth: and take a barb city to my east
(8:17:15 PM) pocketbeetle: Are you not worried about screwing relations with your western neighbour permanently though?
(8:17:20 PM) BobChillingworth: and hurt people
(8:17:20 PM) BobChillingworth: so, works pretty well
(8:17:39 PM) BobChillingworth: what relations, the ones where I ask him to not do something and he does it?
(8:17:54 PM) BobChillingworth: as if my civ is going to be buddies with everyone forever anyway
(8:18:16 PM) pocketbeetle: we can be buddies 4ever...
(8:18:22 PM) BobChillingworth: peace will come through NAP and fear with civs I can't disarm with talk
(8:18:31 PM) pocketbeetle: the Kurio are very peaceful!
(8:18:36 PM) BobChillingworth: heh heh we'd better
(8:18:57 PM) BobChillingworth: right very peaceful, and um that sort of gets to the essence of why I messaged you
(8:19:05 PM) BobChillingworth: which is to say, you might be at danger
(8:19:24 PM) pocketbeetle: From the aforementioned Hippus?
(8:19:31 PM) BobChillingworth: because, as we have discussed, I have no idea who else Iskender would really attack if not you
(8:19:31 PM) BobChillingworth: right
(8:20:03 PM) BobChillingworth: and unless he's a total idiot randomly banging away at the keys, no other reason for him to use that worldspell
(8:20:18 PM) pocketbeetle: wrrjkwerffiouswdffjkadffjkefajdefkjwee
(8:20:30 PM) pocketbeetle: There's more than one in this game =D
(8:20:44 PM) BobChillingworth: heh heh thought you were typing in polish
(8:20:51 PM) pocketbeetle: monkeys and shakespeare and all that
(8:21:13 PM) BobChillingworth: um actually I think Iskender is polish so maybe I should hold my tounge, so to speak :P
(8:21:22 PM) pocketbeetle: He is yes
(8:21:25 PM) pocketbeetle: okay. Well I appreciate the heads up absolutely
(8:21:51 PM) BobChillingworth: yeah, uh you were subtle in asking him if he had any aggressive intentions, _right_?
(8:21:56 PM) pocketbeetle: And I will start upping my military. I should reach a centaur tech pretty soon, and will start building them
(8:22:08 PM) BobChillingworth: not like "those calabim guys told me you were coming lol"
(8:22:21 PM) pocketbeetle: no lol.
(8:22:30 PM) pocketbeetle: I am the master of subtlety
(8:22:39 PM) pocketbeetle: surely you must know this by now?
(8:22:44 PM) pocketbeetle: What are you teching btw?
(8:23:08 PM) BobChillingworth: not sure
(8:23:08 PM) BobChillingworth: heh
(8:23:34 PM) BobChillingworth: I wanted HBR, but I think Dave had other ideas
(8:23:42 PM) pocketbeetle: Wasn't a serious question dude
(8:23:45 PM) BobChillingworth: even when I was playing turns I still let him choose the tech path
(8:23:50 PM) BobChillingworth: ah, hah
(8:23:59 PM) BobChillingworth: good because I wasn't actually going to tell you anyway

Bolded two important parts.
First one seems to indicate that despite the demographics, Bob and Dave regard me as no threat.
Fine by me!

Second is Bob asking what I said to Iskender.
During the course of that chat, Bob’s replies slowed significantly down, and Iskender stayed online.
Strongly suspect that Iskender, not necessarily on purpose, maybe just the language barrier, told Bob that I had passed on Dave’s messages.
I tried playing it off, don’t know if I got it past him, doesn’t matter.
Calabim are never going to be allied longterm with the Kuriotates, and so shaving the truth with them is a-okay by me.

Summary:

1. Calabim declared War on Hippus.
   
2. Hippus cast Warcry.
   
3. Calabim and Hippus signed peace.
   Calabim are either lying or mistaken about Warcry being cast after signing peace, we know from turnlog that’s untrue.
   
4. Calabim attempting to make Kurios suspicious of Hippus motives, are being ignored for now.
   I’m much more inclined to believe the Hippus over the Calabim.
   
5. Long term (T200?) NAP signed between the two, upside for Calabim seems unclear. Settlement agreement and that’s it?
   
6. Hippus uncomfortable with the duration of NAP, sounded unhappy at having the Kurios as a neighbour. Apparently wanted to pillage the Illians a bit?
   I floated the idea of Hidden Nationality units to the Hippus.
   
7. Hippus think Kurios could face dogpile soon, Calabim attitude sounds lukewarm, regards Kurios as not a threat?
   Again more inclined to believe Hippus. I do think I’ve pushed my pitiful military as far as it can go, Kwythellar will now be on military unit production 24/7, Centaur Archers needed asap. Highest concern is returned(?) Illian Priests.
   
8. Will have to negotiate with Iskender for the Gems land soon.
   I do want to fit in a buffer settlement between Karond Kar and the Hippus land, and obviously having your own source of Gems is always better than relying on someone else for it.
   

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 114:

Northern Giant dines on seafood tonight!
He gained 4xp for that, took around half dmg.



You’ll notice that I moved the Giant over the last two turns, rather than staying on the hill.

Two reasons:
Firstly, I wanted to make it appear like it had just moved to that spot, rather than lying in wait.
Secondly, without trying to sound too full of myself, I expected Dave/Bob to not follow the given instructions at the end.

Rather than move SE as told, he moved S. Why?
Because he wanted to scout my Southern borders.
No dice.



Everything moved as planned.
Karond Kar is now working the fp farm, growth in three turns, Southern Giant retreated after avoiding being knocked out by the Goblin stench, Avelorn settler moved onto the desert Hill.



Worker now being built in Avelorn, Settler to be completed after?
I’m waiting for some Hunter backup to settle c2, given the recent Bear sighting and the hilly/forested terrain which prevents me scouting with the Settler itself.

I considered building the Settler anyway and moving to 1NE of the Horses to scout out the fogged tile where the bear was last seen by Bob.
But considering that my settling of c2 is slightly (only slightly) contentious with Selrahc, I’d prefer to not take the piss (and demonstrate weakness) by running an unescorted Settler into his territory beforehand.

Kwythellar had a choice of finishing a 1t Hunter or growing in 2t, I took the growth option.
The city has ~4 happy to fill out, Caledor has even more now, and will being to do so as soon as the Hunting Lodge is completed next turn.


Demographics:

Selrahc, Iskender and Bob gained a pop point.
Selrahc also completed a 22pt tech, let’s just noodle that for a second.

He completed Way of the Wicked on T110, so this 22pt tech took 4 turns.
His GNP has been around 85, so pulling numbers out of the air let’s say that’s a cap of 340b.
That gives Archery, CoL and if I stretch it, HBR/KotE also.
I don’t think he’s got AH yet, the Cows at his capital still reads as unpastured (Ivory mouseover at Chestnut Roast also suggests no Hunting still?).
Of those, I still like CoL, particularly if he intends to try and switch out of City States at some point in the not too distant future.

[Jabah]

Any reason why c5 is 1t of the coast and therefore need culture to claim the seafood (and won't get coastal trade roads, but given that the trade will be divided by lots for settlements, that is not the main point)

[pocketbeetle]

Any reason why c5 is 1t of the coast and therefore need culture to claim the seafood (and won't get coastal trade roads, but given that the trade will be divided by lots for settlements, that is not the main point)

Well spotted, an excellent question. =)
Let's throw that question to the audience, anyone?

Hints:

• Obviously the cX locations are not set in stone and can vary.
  (c1 and c2 have already previously swapped based on military presence - Giants in the South).
  
• In particular this one depends on how soon I expect to reach Priesthood...
  

Edit: Oooh I can see Ilios circling like a shark!