[Spoilers] Defining the phrase "€˜Hung Like a Horse"€™: Pb & the Kuriotates

[darrelljs]

I'm pretty fuzzy on the Kuriotate mechanics, but I do notice C2 is on a plains hill. I thought they couldn't build anything but maybe they only get the city tile? Priesthood likely refers to your decision to spread RoK there via a Stonewarden. The temple does generate its gold. Unfortunately its the one that doesn't generate any culture, so you might be planning on a mini culture bomb from a Disciple to pop borders.

Or you are changing religions after spaning ToKs? Now that I think about it, for the Kuriotates and someone whos collected a lot of shrine spots, swapping and spamming the various temples into settlements might be a nice strategy. I'm not sure its worth the hammer costs and risk to losing heros, but it certainly has some value.

I would love it if you explain what can and can't be done in a settlement.

Darrell

[pocketbeetle]

Hey Darrell

I think you mean c1 that's about to be founded is on a hill?
Settlements can't build anything no, but as you point out, can have buildings forced into them. Eg RoK temple via Stonewarden.
I do intend to change to OO after I've got a decent amount of RoK temples down.
The plan is to maximise RoK and OO shrine output yup.

Settlement stuff that I posted at the start here.
I do oneday need to do that contents page.

[Profane]

I suppose c5 is off the coast to avoid a surprise boating attack to suddenly raze it in 1 turn, cutting off the Crabs because units would then have to spend 1 turn landing next to the settlement, after which you could reinforce with troops.
Of course, if someone were really determined to raze it in 1 turn, I suppose they could just land unpromoted units next to the settlement and promote them to mobility I...

I didn't know settlement output was quartered. I guess this means I have to reconsider my usual sp play of garrisoning Mind I Adepts in every settlement for the +2 beakers per settlement (so i'm only getting 0.5 beakers per settlement).

And about forcing buildings into settlements, I know there's Earth I spell Wall of Stone (+defense %, was it 25%?), Spirit II spell Hope (+3 culture + 1 happy) and Mind I spell Inspiration (+2 beakers) can be forced in too apart from Temples and Bear Cages, but are there others that i'm missing out?

I suppose settlements be also used to attempt to pop resources from mines with that 1 pop, but it's probably not the best use of the population point...

Anyway, i've got a question i've been wondering about - as the Kuriotates, do you think it is worth going for the Order religion to have access to high priests which essentially give the effects of Globe Theatre to 4 megacities? Kuriotates have a high happy cap already, so i'm only having half a mind on trying this out in an sp game... I guess this also affects the play of whether to go for Tower of Complacency or not, since it does pose a -10% production penalty to military unit building and costs a bunch, if i'm not mistaken...

[pocketbeetle]

Hi Profane, some good brainstorming there!
I'd say you probably came closest with the last point...

Responding to your post in rough order:

I suppose c5 is off the coast to avoid a surprise boating attack to suddenly raze it in 1 turn, cutting off the Crabs because units would then have to spend 1 turn landing next to the settlement, after which you could reinforce with troops.
Of course, if someone were really determined to raze it in 1 turn, I suppose they could just land unpromoted units next to the settlement and promote them to mobility I...

I'm not too bothered about settlements being boated. Remember they cost me ~70h, plus the cost of a RoK/OO Priest. Compare that to the cost of a military unit, say a Centaur Archer at 80h, and it's just not worth getting overly excited about.
The only coastal city I care about losing at this time is Kwythellar, which if razed would result in a long angry post (alternating between expletives and quiet whimpers).

I didn't know settlement output was quartered. I guess this means I have to reconsider my usual sp play of garrisoning Mind I Adepts in every settlement for the +2 beakers per settlement (so i'm only getting 0.5 beakers per settlement).

Settlement output quartered - sorry my original post is probably not clear enough on this, my fault.

Food, Hammers (irrelevant can't build anything) and Raw Commerce (eg from trade routes) are all quartered.
The reason why specialists are unaffected and remain useful is because their output is either Beakers or Coins, ie a finished product and therefore not quartered.

In the case of your Mind Adepts example, the level 1 Mind Spell forces a building called Inspiration into a city or settlement, whose output is +2 beakers (and +1 gppt, irrelevant for settlements) and therefore is unaffected/not reduced.
So there's absolutely nothing wrong with what you're doing, and it's nice way of making hibernating Adepts do something useful.

However, keep in mind the following:
I find I'm typically pushing the unit supply in FFH2 (founding the settlement near Kar Karond soon will actually lower my costs due to increased unit supply).
Therefore all those Adepts are probably costing you -1gpt in unit supply, for which you're getting 2 beakers back - an okay conversion, but factor in inflation also on that unit supply and it becomes less attractive.
Yes you're getting a slowly increasing experience army, but for me it's just another 'glass half empty' reason for not beelining KotE early on. *shrugs*

Jabah made a good point about settlement coastal trade routes with The Great Lighthouse, but I don't see myself (or anyone) beelining that wonder anytime soon.
For me it would only really benefit Kwythellar, and would be hard to justify the hammers:beakers return in a city I'm looking to make a military pump.
The wonder is probably worth more to one of the other players (and thus increased denial value to me), but none of them seem to be making noises about it.
Iskender may settle his first coastal city soon, Bob apparently has none, Sareln has one, Cull could have up to two maximum, I don't think Selrahc has any.
Of those, Cull would probably benefit most from building TGL (would be a smart play by him along with Sailing for trade routes to me), but I imagine he has other priorities at this time.

And about forcing buildings into settlements, I know there's Earth I spell Wall of Stone (+defense %, was it 25%?), Spirit II spell Hope (+3 culture + 1 happy) and Mind I spell Inspiration (+2 beakers) can be forced in too apart from Temples and Bear Cages, but are there others that i'm missing out?

Forcing buildings - nope I think you got most of them.
You can't force Animal/Bear cages into settlements for easy early culture - tried that before, no joy (even with the Grand Menagerie wonder).

The level 1 Earth spell: Wall of Stone gives 25% defense yes, and stacks with the buildable Palisade + Stone Walls to combine to 10 + 25 +25 = 60% defense before culture.
If I manage to build the RoK shrine (+1 Earth mana) I'll definitely have a few Adepts with that spell, but it's not worth converting a mana node to Earth for.
That's also another reason why the Khazad, with their free Earth mana from the palace (plus innate palace ~20% defense bonus), can be a difficult defensive nut to crack. Settle on a hill, get Adepts and walls quickly, and you're looking at an easy ~120% defense.

Anyway, i've got a question i've been wondering about - as the Kuriotates, do you think it is worth going for the Order religion to have access to high priests which essentially give the effects of Globe Theatre to 4 megacities? Kuriotates have a high happy cap already, so i'm only having half a mind on trying this out in an sp game... I guess this also affects the play of whether to go for Tower of Complacency or not, since it does pose a -10% production penalty to military unit building and costs a bunch, if i'm not mistaken...

This is a good question.

The standard answer/general opinion is that Unyielding Order works well with the Kuriotates (Unyielding Order: No unhappiness in a city, requires the High Priest to remain in the city - remember you're limited to only 4 High Priests, -100% maintenance).
Now that I've played a bit more with the Kurios, I'm not convinced.

In peacetime, I don't typically find myself struggling for happiness; usually health is just as much of a restriction (one of the reasons I'm looking forward to this game with its plentiful health resources).
It's only in war-time that happiness really bites the Kurios in the butt, with their huge cities quickly gaining +7ish unhappy from war weariness, and not helped by the palace giving a +20% WW 'bonus' in all cities.
So that's when Unyielding Order would be pretty useful - in a protracted war.
But do you really want your restricted amount, tier 3, best medics (those High Priests) stuck sitting in your cities during that war?
Unless you have Sphener, those High Priests are the only units that can cast Heal - they really should be near the battlefront.

Other downsides include the fact that yes, the Tower of Complacency competes by also giving unlimited happy in one city, plus Unyielding Order negates the production bonus from the Pillar of Chains (powerful wonder, the main reason for building it).
Pillar of Chains, like the Calabim Governor's Mansions, relies on unhappy faces to provide free hammers.
No unhappy faces = no extra production.
Plus there's the obvious religious restriction of having to stay Order.
So I'm not so sure personally.

I went Order once, wasn't impressed and haven't felt the need to go again. If you're on a happiness restricted map, then it maybe is the right play. But on this map I'm feeling okay for happiness at the moment.
I've got plenty of religions to choose from (RoK, OO, AV for extra military oomph via Ritualists, possible Empyrean for Chalid?) and sufficient happy cap to play with.
Kwythellar won't be long in reaching size 18, and those Gems between Iskender and I add another 3 happy (Base 1 + RoK temple 1 + Jeweller 1), not to mention Cull's Gold (3), the Ivory half claimed by the upcoming settlement (1), the Furs (2) and Whales (1) North of Caledor, Enchantment mana node (1) etc etc etc.
Size 30 cities should be a walk in the park.

Last points about the Tower of Complacency:
I'm keen on getting this in Avelorn. The -50% maintenance from it, not normally a huge bonus, will stack with a Courthouse for -90% maintenance and is pretty useful for this map obviously.
Regarding the -10% military unit production - I'm not certain on this, I should check, but I suspect the production penalty is hammers only.
The land around Avelorn is going to be one great rolling farmland, and if that city needs to spam out military units I'll be using the Conquest civic for food -> production. I have a feeling that this food conversion will ignore the -10% hammer penalty. (Am I making sense? Probably not).

But yes, it's going to be painful building the Tower of Complacency in Avelorn, with its poor base production.
If the ETA is somethin crazy like 50 turns, then I'll have to find a way around it (Adaptive Industrious, GEng, Mines of Gal'dur for 3 engineers?).

____________________

How did this turn into such a long post?
Anyway, returning to settlements, here's another hint:



The reasoning behind c5's positioning is the same as why I haven't placed c4 right on top of the Furs.
Both c4 locations pick up the Whale eventually, but placing a settlement on the Furs would save me a bunch of turns getting a Worker over there to camp them.


Just to downplay expectations, so that when someone figures it out there isn't a collect sigh of 'Wtf? Who cares!' from everyone: there's no great overriding tactical genius behind this reason.
It's just a little trick that I find can make settlements more useful in the early/mid game.
So why would this be dependent on the timing of Priesthood and getting Priests?

.

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 115:

Quiet turn.
Northern Giant moved onto c1 hill to cover the Settler, settlement will be founded next turn.

GArt moved into Kar Karond, lots of lumbermilling going on, Vanilla Ice still scampering across the Empire.



Caledor completed the Hunting Lodge (more demographics power) and I set it up to get enough food to grow next turn.
Kwythellar grew and completed a Hunter, Avelorn completed a Worker but contrary to the screenshot will complete the Settler next turn before building another Worker.

Maintenance now at -30 gpt, 5 of which is unit supply.
That should go down when c1 is settled.

Oh and as a heads-up, I’ve already decided on a settlement naming scheme.
Seeing as the last naming scheme got busted by someone on the very first warrior, I’ve decided to make the next SUPER difficult.
As in, those-under-the-age-of-20-need-not-apply-it’s-going-to-be-so-damn-obscure.
Anyone found Googling will be shot!


Demographics:

Cull and Iskender gained a pop point, Selrahc’s GNP is starting to look okay.

[Jabah]

Just to downplay expectations, so that when someone figures it out there isn't a collect sigh of 'Wtf? Who cares!' from everyone: there's no great overriding tactical genius behind this reason.
It's just a little trick that I find can make settlements more useful in the early/mid game.
So why would this be dependent on the timing of Priesthood and getting Priests?

.

One trick with settlement is making them work one of your (main city) cottage, but that is without connection to priesthood (and except if you chop a forrest, won't apply to c5).

[Ilios]

Edit: Oooh I can see Ilios circling like a shark!

I was guessing the Boy-King is Hydro-and Galeophobic, but I didn't bother posting...

[Maksim]

It's just a little trick that I find can make settlements more useful in the early/mid game.
So why would this be dependent on the timing of Priesthood and getting Priests?

.

Well, if you build a camp there, then the citizen can work it, and between the camp and the base tile, you will have, even when quartered, a bit of extra commerce.

This is all made irrelevant once you get a ToK into the settlement, and can change the citizen to be a merchant, directly generating gold for the gold god.

The timing is dependent on when you get Priesthood and feel safe enough to start spamming Priests for no greater purpose than building ToK in every settlement.

The other reason you are going for a one-tile-off-the-coast city is that it allows you to squeeze one extra settlement to its south-west (NE of capital) when you have a spare settler\priest pair.

Do I get a cookie?

[Profane]

The other reason you are going for a one-tile-off-the-coast city is that it allows you to squeeze one extra settlement to its south-west (NE of capital) when you have a spare settler\priest pair.

I don't know... if the settlement is placed 1W of c5 instead of on it, can't the same number of settlements be squeezed in?
I can squeeze 7 settlements between the 4 megacities if c5 is in either position. Unless... there's a better configuration i'm not seeing that allows for 8?

I'm thinking c4 and c5 are placed at their respective locations so that RoK and ToK can be spread and built a turn sooner.

[Maksim]

I don't know... if the settlement is placed 1W of c5 instead of on it, can't the same number of settlements be squeezed in?

I was thinking 4N 1E of Kwythellar, which would become unavailable if c5 were moved 1 west.