SPOILERS-Tatan's PBEM10 Thread

[Adlain]

Ahoy,

When your work boat Clockwise first contacted me, you may have noticed an offshore island to the west of my position. Since my work boat got lost and I have no idea how close you are to that island, I was wondering if you would have any issues with me settling it in the near future [not sure exactly when, but with-in 20 turns]. If you are closer than I thought, perhaps we can work out a settling agreement.

-Tatan

P.S. And if you don't mind me poking around, was that your scientist born just now? I figured it was yours or Greece's, since it sure as sunshine wasn't mine.

Adlain, what do you think of this? I don't want to repeat the Serdoa incident and piss off my other neighbor. Argh, diplo r b komplik4t3d.

Umm - i i personly see no reason to send this. Cyneheard is (at our best guess) nearer the Centre than us and TBF i see this island as, to quote Civ V, "Within our Sphere of Influance". The reason i wanted and still do want to settle on the Iron is he Fish - this will be a land poor site, but the fish may allow it to grow into somthing more than a pure iron settlement - but thats only an opinion.

Move the WB North to see if there is land 3/ 4 tiles north of the island, if there is then we may need o negotiate with the owner of said island. IF there is none or it is uninhabited then i vote we plant now, beg forgivness later

[Tatan]

Due to an exceptionally irritating essay, any sort of cohesive update will need to wait until tomorrow. Until then, enjoy this sneak peak:








WHAT WILL THE NEW TURN BRING?!?!?!?!

[Tatan]

Alright, let's get some update in. It was really tempting to blow this off, but I know I need to please my adoring fans! So it's time for: Tatan's Manic Midnight Message!

I'll start with the trivial. We now have two new themes:
1) Cities are named after BOARD GAMES [ooo, got some good ideas for this]!
2) Aggressive land units are named after OBNOXIOUS POP SONGS! I really like this idea, Darkmantle! What's worse than having your capital razed by "Muskrat Love"?!
3) Civilians are named COMMUNISTS. In Soviet Russia, leaders work for YOU!

Accordingly, I renamed a new worker to The Glorious Chairman Mao [surprisingly, the whole name fit!]. However, apparently not every one has lots of crazy ideas floating around in their heads like myself [:dancing5:], so I was forced to name several other units after my iPod shuffle. Fortunately for the populace at large, fairly conventional songs popped up [3 archers -> Carouselambra, Smells Like Teen Spirit, and She's On It, 1 galley -> Sick Again], but seriously, it's only a matter of time before Al Yankovic or [gasp] Frank Zappa songs start popping up, and this thread will get really, really weird [yes, weirder then it is now!]. So submit your idea TODAY! [okay, not today, because it just ended as I was typing this, maybe tomorrow] [then again, tomorrow's a work day, how about Saturday] [okay, screw it, SOME TIME BEFORE THE GAME ENDS]


...


*clears throat*


...*drinks soothing glass of ice water*


...Well, it appears I have no memory at all of what happened in Turn 63, so I'll have to guess based on these handy-dandy pics I took.




Food! Definitely settling between the irons, then, unless I'm completely missing something. Hey, here's a thought: if someone else within our trade-radius fails to hook up iron, should we consider trying to sell it? They'll know we have it via looking at the resource screen, and iron will be valuable for a pretty long time, so I think we could secure something pretty cool, like, I dunno, settling rights, or lots of gold, or SOMETHING. Food for thought, anyway.




Umm... should we re-evaluate the "don't tell, settle anyway" plan? I am just really leery of pissing off the one neighbor we have who doesn't overtly hate our guts. [Am I over-reacting to Serdoa? Probably. I'm just really scared I'm going to see a boatload of Horse Archers or something roll up to one of my colonies.]


New turn is played. Should be able to settle iron city on Turn 67 [I just played Turn 64]. Looks like the other players in this game are rather fond of wonders:



Fine with me. For the benefit of Adlain and those of you too lazy to read other threads, Colossus is almost certainly Twinkletoes, and I can confirm via Top 5 Cities that the Hanging Gardens is Cyneheard [whom I sent a short congratulatory/small-talk style note to]. TT building the Colossus was already a certainty, and the less production Cyneheard is putting into cheap settlers, the better. I'll iterate what I said earlier: early wonders are usually a shot to the foot, especially in an expansionist map like this! The person I am concerned about right now is Ad Hoc, who hasn't built any wonders, is benefiting from his neighbor Twinkletoes being mortal enemies with someone else, and just founded his 7th city last turn . Cyneheard is a runner-up to long-term opponent, with six cities which are pop-boosted by the HG. I have six cities myself, with a seventh to follow in mere turns and an eighth fairly soon after that; but I don't know how long I can keep up. I know, as a fact, that I don't have the raw Civ skills most of the other players do, so I'm going to need luck, Diplo, or enemy to pull this off. This is going to be interesting.


Oh, short mini-story: there was a settler in Novgorod [Serdoa's nearest city] on Turn 63, and the next turn it was replaced with a galley. I wonder where that galley is going... :rolleyes:

...so I ask!

r u tryin 2 settel on mai island cuz ur scaired 2 looze out on teh land rush lol

Just kidding! Don't kill me, Adlain! Though I was sorely tempted to send something like, "So, where's that settler going?", I am honestly TRYING not to be an asshole in this game. It just, you know, happens.


Serious thoughts: there is not a lot of room to settle on this map, if you think about it. If I can get two cities on the west island, and found the remaining city sites on my home island, then I have a grand total of 11 cities. Warfare is going to be necessary in this game, which is why I suggest, after researching Currecny and potentially CoL, we go for Construction. Serdoa, with his wonder-lagged civ, close borders, and potential bitterness towards us, seems a prime target.

Another thing [yes, another]: Adlain, I'm getting a bit concerned about a settling dispute with Cyneheard over the western island [not the iron one, but the other large island], which is something I would really rather avoid. In light of the fact that he already has scouts over there, do you think I should ask for a settling agreement? If it is an island similar in size to the one to the south, there should be room for 3-4 cities on it, and I would prefer to make sure I have at least 2 there. I'm just really weary about settling into the teeth of a fogged island, with another player who already has a presence on the island potentially getting angry. I know you opposed notifying other players of where we are settling before [and in terms of settling on the iron island [TM] I completely agree], but I think this is different. Thoughts?


Apologies for the low pic-to-text ratio, but I started writing and just couldn't stop until this was all out. And this whole thing took an hour ! Now you know why I've been slacking on the updates recently...

[Tatan]

I spy, with my little eye, a dirty Russian settler:



Gee, I wonder where they're going...


Found the land of the light-stealer:



Hope he doesn't ask me for open borders now, because I will definitely refuse. Bah, where is Twinkletoes?! I want to spam posts in the Public Players Thread...


Oh, and I got graphs on Cyneheard. Predictably, he is killing me in GNP and Food, and I'm killing him in Production and Power. I would post them, but it is almost impossible to distinguish between the different oranges.

As this game edges towards AD years [it's 400 BCE already ], I notice that, unlike other games, no one has been crippled yet. Well, with my iron soon to be connected, I should be able to weather what is sure to come.

Oh, and Adlain: I still need to know whether you think I should email Cyneheard about a settling agreement, I'm starting to get antsy.

[Adlain]

Apologies, i was sure i had replyed already.................. guess not

If you want to email regarding the west Island, we need to scout it out somewhat first or we will look like we are trying to get somthing for nothing, Negotiating blind for land space is a garanteed way for ether a) Looking Greedy or b) Getting screwed on the deal. we need to know wether or not it can support more than 1 Civ before we wade in with out size 12`s asking for a slice.

As for the Rusky settler heading to our southern island, dont fret - we will conquor it soon mwhahahahaa.....*cough....*cough....hahahahaaha.

[Tatan]

Well, to be fair you did respond, but it was to a settling agreement over the iron island, which turned out to be far enough away from Cyneheard that I can claim it with impunity.

The settler will not be arriving in the western island for several turns, so I should be able to scope out some of the situation with my exploratory work boat. I'm just concerned that Cyneheard settles like 2/3 of the island without forewarning; in other words, exactly what I did to Serdoa!


Not sure how well I am explaining this, so let me show you the map as known so far with an approximation of Cyneheard's island [assuming it is equal in size to ours] super-imposed over it:




Also, while fishing around my email for a save to do this pic with, I noticed a very intriguing email from Cyneheard. And I do mean intriguing. More in a bit.

[Tatan]

I'm sending this identical e-mail to all three of Ad Hoc, Tatan, and Serdoa, to discuss a full embargo on Meatbalz for Open Borders, to keep the Great Lighthouse from letting him run away with the game. Right now, he's got 21 trade routes. That's 63 free commerce because of all the open borders he has with everyone. ~80, if he's got Currency. His low score just means that we have time to deal with him, but not all that much. Since we don't have full mutual contact (not sure how Serdoa and Ad Hoc can get contact quickly), someone has to end up with forwarding duty, and I'm the only one of the four of us with full contact. Anything sent to me will get promptly forwarded to whoever you want.

We don't have to have an agreement immediately, but the sooner the better.

The plan is that the four of us would all agree not to sign OBs with Meatbalz, and Twinkletoes expects that he will end up at war with Meatbalz. If he can't get our support, he won't cut OBs, which limits the value of any of us doing so (and everyone, including myself, except for Tatan has signed OBs with Meatbalz: the only way this truly makes sense is if we all act together on this one).

Twinkletoes is willing to do this under two conditions:
1) The rest of us agree not to fight TT for the duration of his war with Meatbalz. I can forward any negotiations/conditions you may want to Twinkletoes, if desired.
2) Metal: To the extent possible, we would need to find a way to get him access to some; TT promises to return payment "once it is no longer needed": this should probably be clarified. I'm willing to do so if/when I get access to iron; it's amazing what a well-timed set of whips could generate in 2-3t for internal defenses before shipping it off for 10t.

(Following sent only to Tatan):
Any reason for us not to sign OBs, so that we don't lose Trade Route income if this goes through?

-- Cyneheard of Carthage

Uh, hell yes?

[Sending this to Ad Hoc, Serdoa, and Cyneheard]

Ooo, looks like diplo in this game is getting interesting. I can confirm the Meatbalz has currency already [check the technology screen, he can trade gold], so that's 3 trade routes per city, which is not exactly conductive to fair competition in a NTT. As Cyneheard stated, I declined open borders with Meatbalz, and so quite obviously I am on-board with a Trade Embargo.

As for Twinkletoes' conditions, I don't have any metal or even contact with him yet so obviously a trade isn't possible, but I am willing to pledge to not attack TT for the duration of his war.

-Tatan

[Reply only to Cyneheard]
Yeah, we kind of have to sign OB if this doesn't work. The reason I hadn't signed yet was I was still defogging a route to him, which only only completed this turn. If Meatbalz starts to actually get dangerously ahead in tech there will almost assuredly be interest in a dogpile, or maybe we could just re-organize an embargo and crash his economy...

I'm sorry I didn't think about this myself at all [which I probably should have ], but this way I don't get the -1 "You negotiated a trade embargo against us!" penalty. I really hope this goes through... the fiendish stealer of our wonder must by PUNISHED!

[Tatan]

So Coltaine moves in to investigate Serdoa's settler:



So I guess he wasn't foolish enough to try to settle on my island after all.


Metal Casting is in, research set to Currency. Meatbalz adopts Judaism. On the topic of religion, don't know the last time I've talked about this, but Buddhism [Serdoa's relgion] is now present in Aren, Ehrlitan, and Pale, so we should consider revolting eventually [Org. Religion will be a good idea sooner rather than later; in fact, I think we should go up the Monotheism/Monarchy route next, after Currency and potentially CoL].


Not much else interesting happening. All of my core cities are on either workers or settlers. Some pretty dramatic diplo is going on at the moment, but I don't want to post until stuff actually starts resolving.

So, more after Cyneheard gets his lazy butt away from the rave party or whatever he always apparently does on Friday nights and gets around to checking his email.

[Tatan]

Continuing with embargo diplo...

First: Please one of you forward that email to Ad Hoc as well, so he is kept in the loop. I would like to request the same from you as well if there is something I cannot receive directly.

That out of the way, I have to say that I can understand your worries, but simply am not able to close borders for now, as those was part of a deal I have with mb. I hope everyone understands that I don't want to break my word. Unfortunately I also do not have metals as of now, those are also put somewhere else then the starting continent (a decision I disagree with btw)

Anyway. I agree not to fight TT (not that it would have ever been an option). But I would like to know what turn he thinks he will attack and if possible so more insight of troop composition, so that I can get the right builds done at the right time - after all, I want to expand as well.

Kind regards,
Serdoa

Curses. And simultaneously to that email I get:

Hello Tatan. It's been a while. Have you managed to defog a route by any chance? Once you do, I'd suggest the following:

OB would be worth 4 gold/turn to me, since I have a city stuck on 2 gold/turn trade routes instead of the 3 I'd get with OB. Yeah it's not a huge difference but it would help build relations and it does mean 4 extra gold/turn to me - I could give half that back to you, 20 gold upfront every 10T.

[SNIP]

MB

No, not what I need right now! Can you, you know, wait a few turns? I send a stalling message until I can discuss with Cyneheard to tell me whether we should still go through with it; he says we probably will. I would have like a more definitive answer, but whatev.

Incidentally, the snipped part of the email was the more interesting bit:

I did want to ask - have you got any intel on Cyneheard you care to share? He has an absolutely enormous population & food lead which means he can whip himself into a very strong leadership position. The HG was a good move with all those cities and he'll soon be done colonizing his sphere of influence. Anything you want to ask, shoot.

Problem is, he's right. Cyneheard's graphs are shooting up rapidly, and I'm more than a bit worried. But Cyneheard is the only person who I have actually cordial relations with, so I don't exactly want to turn on him or anything. Bleh. I send the following back to Meatbalz:

Coincidentally, I just found your borders this turn, so I should be able to have trade routes. However, I'm afraid I am going to have to decline Open Borders, because frankly I am a bit scared of your trade routes as seen in the Demographics right now. I might be interested later if other players became more threatening. If you would ever like to propose something else, simply ask.

Regarding Cyneheard, I'm not too worried about him, at the moment at least. His growth is being checked to an extent by Ad Hoc [who seems to be leading in cities] and myself [I'm not doing too shabby in expansion, if I say so myself]. Besides, I don't think anyone is really in a position to do anything about it at the moment[at least, I am not]. If he starts to pull ahead, of course, I will want to return to this topic.

Oh, and you've almost certainly noticed this, but TT appears to have completed the Colossus. Is there something in the water down in the Southern Hemisphere that causes you folks to build all these wonders?
-Tatan

To mitigate any loss in trade route income when Currency comes in, I ask Ad Hoc for open borders:

Ahoy,

I noticed we have a trade connection, so I offered Open Borders in-game. I would prefer if you sent no land scouting units to my territory, but I have no issues with naval units, unless you prefer otherwise, of course.

-Tatan

Don't even know why I bothered pasting that in, but it's there now!


So. You can see the state of mind I was in as I opened the game. To find this:



Are you serious?! Why, WHY must Cyneheard vie for control of the iron with me?! Can't he find his own stinking source? So. If it weren't for the previously cordial relations, I would just be an asshole and settle on top of the iron on the left, invalidating any other city placement and practically forcing Cyneheard to attack. But... with my horrible relations with Serdoa I can't just piss of Carthage, too; I'll have no one to support me. I want to try to work out some sort of settling agreement with Carthage, but at the same time, I want that island to myself. Bleh. Oh, and I moved the work boat, and Carthaginian Culture is only like three tiles further into the fog. More bleh.

And you know what, here is something else I just thought of: Cyneheard did not say he was planning to settle there, despite knowing how close my borders were. Of course, I didn't have any warning for him, either; but to be fair I didn't quite know how close we were. But still, I don't think I quite have the moral high ground; Christ, why does diplomacy have so much gray shading?! I need black-and-white!

After some deliberation, I send Cyneheard an email.

So, I've noticed that you have a galley bound east, towards what I can only assume to be the 4 tile diagonal island near my borders. The only logical explanation is that you plan to colonize the island for the iron, without telling me so much as a thing.

The only problem, is that I already have a settler on the island, ready to plant. I sent him there before I realized quite how close our borders were, and was planning to ask you about a settling agreement. Until I saw that you were also planning to claim the island, without contacting me AT ALL, while also knowing that my borders were TWO TILES AWAY from the island.

Suffice to say, I'm disappointed; I thought we had fairly good relations until now. I would still be willing to make some sort of a settling agreement with you, if you have any offers to make. I plan to hold onto the save until we reach an agreement, or a disagreement; whichever comes first.

If I am completely misunderstanding your intentions, please tell me. But from what I see, things don't look too good for Carthaginian-Dutch relations right now

-Tatan

I'm lying about the settling agreement thing, kind of; I would have planted before realizing how close Cyneheard was, so it was a null point. But you know what, I am sick of gray diplomacy, and I know one thing: Cynheard has known about that island for quite a while, much longer than I have [he sailed by it to get contact with me!], and so he must have been planning this for a while. Planning to take my iron, from ME. This CAN NOT STAND.


Of course, I expect war. I'm already moving up a galley laden with an archer that I had down south as a safeguard against Serdoa. Genabaris will probably whip. I'll have to try and secure a NAP with Serdoa [as much as I dislike the fact that they restrict strategical flexibility].

In a cosmic coincidence, the archer on that galley is named as per my iPod's instructions, named after a favorite song of mine by XTC: Working for Paper and for Iron. Fate is creepy.


Adlain, I am dying to hear your thoughts on this. And to the global lurkers who have known about this settling race for ages: anything else you want to tell me about?

[Adlain]

Tatan, I think you have over reacted somewhat. that settler could be heading for the island to our east (where his chariot is) i would have advised just to settle on our dot as indicated in your picture and claim ignorace if it came to ahead later. However that is nolonger an option after sending that email, and saying we will holding the save as a hostage will not earn us any diplo-points imho.

So, I've noticed that you have a galley bound east, towards what I can only assume to be the 4 tile diagonal island near my borders. The only logical explanation is that you plan to colonize the island for the iron, without telling me so much as a thing.

The only problem, is that I already have a settler on the island, ready to plant. I sent him there before I realized quite how close our borders were, and was planning to ask you about a settling agreement. Until I saw that you were also planning to claim the island, without contacting me AT ALL, while also knowing that my borders were TWO TILES AWAY from the island.

Suffice to say, I'm disappointed; I thought we had fairly good relations until now. I would still be willing to make some sort of a settling agreement with you, if you have any offers to make. I plan to hold onto the save until we reach an agreement, or a disagreement; whichever comes first.

If I am completely misunderstanding your intentions, please tell me. But from what I see, things don't look too good for Carthaginian-Dutch relations right now

-Tatan

Frick indeed, you have tied our hands with that wording.

• First you have said about the Iron, we have no way to know if he has IW (that i know of) so if he didnt know that was on the island he does now
  
• 2nd you have attempted the moral high ground (never a good idea imho as personaly i dont buy into such a notion in these games) only to say first that we had a settler ready to do the same thing ourselves (claim the island). Sounds a mite hypercritical to me. not to mention our past history with Serdoa if it gets out (at my insistaince i will admit, and still hold to have been the correct course of action to claim that island ASAP)
  
• you have put an indefinate hold on playing the game (Taken it hostage)until he responds, Personaly i would have put somthing like a 12 hr limit "If i dont get a responce to this email/ agree a course of action with yourself before 12hrs from sending this email i will play my turn as i deem nessersery" so as to avoid the feeling of delaying the game more than needed for diplo reasons.

My advice (If your still intrested ofc ) is to wait a max of 5-10 hours for a responce and see what he has to say. if you like, PM me or post in this thread the responce when you get it if you want my thought on it so we hold the game up as little as posable.

If no responce is forthcoming/ get fed up with waiting, i would settle on our dot as seen on your screenshot - if he gets pissy we have hard evidence we had planed to settle there BEFORE he turned up with his settler and i beleave we COULD explain it away - but be warned this will cause a diplo hit with Cyneheard and dont expect him to be forthcoming with a good settlment plan for that eastern island - that may be forfit if we go this route.


Edit:
Just a random thought i had:

Me ad you do seem to be polar opisites when it comes to Diplomacy/ Agressivness in this game. looking back i seem to be the agressive "Warmonger" type sofar and you seem to be more inclined to build peacfuly and co-exsist. Bit like Chalk and Cheese sofar.