SPOILERS-Tatan's PBEM10 Thread

[Tatan]

Well, after calming down while waiting for a response, I have realized: yeah, I totally screwed that up. To be fair to myself in one respect, I wasn't trying to hold the game hostage, I just didn't want to do something against Cyneheard and then have him email five minutes later that everything was okay.

I OF COURSE [] value your opinions, Adlain!

But, seriously, my problem is that I am fairly rash, and I NEEDED to respond. Waiting is NOT AN OPTION.

Regarding your assessment of our diplo values, not sure if this validates that; I was right about to go into Always War mode on Cyneheard there for a bit, whereas you were all like, "Uh, Tatan, is this really the right course of action?" Okay, I'm impulsive and rash. Sue me.

Fortunately, it was all a -filled misunderstanding.

The galley's empty. I was just exploring. When my workboat buzzed the island 15-20t ago, it wasn't clear to me how valuable those little islands were going to be, so I didn't fully explore the extent of them.

I understand why you might expect the galley to be full, so no concerns about that.

Do you see two sources of iron? Ad hoc mentioned that his small island has two sources of iron, and I see no sign of another island to my northwest (which strikes me as absurdly poor map design: Each player should have some way to get copper or iron without having to make deals/get lucky exploring/settling before IW comes in, but such is the map design, and it's not clear that there are six possible city sites on these islands).

In the interests of full disclosure, I have settled a city on the western edge of the green island between the two of us. I believe I did so last turn or the turn before.

Oh.

</smiley_spam>

Oh. Well. Epic misunderstanding, I sincerely apologize. I simply thought that we had had fairly good relations until now, and was alarmed that you would try to settle under my nose [also, didn't quite realize how close you were]. Er, sorry for the severe over-reaction.

There are in fact two sources of iron on the island, one on the very SE tile, the other two tiles NW of that. I would be willing to split the land wherein I settle in the very SE corner and you in the very NW corner; it would give me an advantage in making my iron un-pillageable, but I can't think of another feasible solution, other than settling between them and gifting you one. Obviously, I do not expect you to want that, however.

Regarding the island between us, I was actually planning on settling there with in two turns [not sure of exact number, though]. I notice that you already have a chariot exploring the island; is there any way to divide the island relatively evenly? I was planning on settling a city in the SE corner; would there be enough room to also settle in the NE corner?

Well, I hope that clears that up. Again, I apologize for my complete nervous over-reaction, I'll try to ask questions first and accuse later next time. I hope we can continue to have cordial relations.

Oh, and regarding the potential embargo of Meatbalz: any word from Ad Hoc?

Sincerely,
Tatan, nervous nelly

My basic response: "Oops, s***. Um, any chance of a return to normalcy?"

I feel the city agreement is completely fair. I don't mind giving up part of the iron for good relations at all, and hopefully the a settling agreement over that other island will fall into place nicely.


So looking back on this: , don't tell anyone I'm secretly a -head. I'm strongly considering warning Cyneheard about Meatbalz's message from earlier, for 1)good relations w/ Cyneheard, 2)revenge on the Arabian Thief.



Adlain, do you think that idea has any sort of smartness in it at all? Also, do you think a NAP with Cyneheard is a good idea? Just to eliminate any possibility of trickery, and again, to foster good relations.

[Tatan]

Warning: WoT ahead! If you only read some, read the first two.

Well, Cyneheard responded to my message quickly, and we had the following correspondence:

I understand, Iron's a big deal. And galleys can be very sneaky creatures. You didn't want two chariots to come in and burn down your city the instant it landed.

I don't think Ad Hoc's made his decision terribly clear on what to do about Meatbalz. I'll try talking to him again, but I was somewhat confused when we last spoke about what he wanted.

If we can settle the iron so that 2 cities can be settled, that would be awesome. Gifted iron...ugh. Not my idea of a safe source.

There are four possible city sites on this island, so that shouldn't be too difficult to split; some flexibility exists, as well. Nice and square-ish island, 5 or 6 tiles on a side. When I next get the save, I'll send you a picture of the whole island. I'll need to look over the possible sites, but they're basically in the four corners of the island, and all get plenty of food and good tiles (all grassland). Much better than my western island, which really only supports three cities, and some tiles being stolen by a city in my far SW corner.

I think I can get a settler over to that island in a few turns, with or without workers (Ugh, Jungle). And it looks like you've got much easier access to that island than I do.

Cyneheard

I'm attaching a file with a screenshot of the island, and city spots marked.

Obviously, Calimari is mine. I'm proposing that I get the city 1S of the cows, and you'd take the two sites marked (the deer in the east would default to yours, being first ring); this means that the rice tile would be contested, but your SE city would still have two foods (Deer and Crab), whereas mine would only have a 4-food cow. I don't see any reason why you couldn't move either dot N or S as you wish, but those spots seemed like the strongest IMO.

I do admit that the NE city isn't that great (on second thought, 2S of the current marked spot on my chariot is a better location, with the other city way down at the SE corner), but I think it would still be a better site than anything on our home triangles. Actually, that "second thought" set of sites leaves us about even, depending mostly on who wins the battle for the rice for who gets the better pair of cities.

If you want to discuss culture rules for any of these cities, I'm game.

My basic rule of thumb tends to be:
No wonders, Great or National (assuming the NW provide culture).
No running artists/building culture unless it's to pop the first ring. Obviously unenforceable, although the rest of these are. When I told Ilios in PB3 that I'd been building culture in our culture war there, his response was "You bastard."
No building Cathedrals
And no Great Artist bombs, of course.

This would apply to Cornwall or any city on the two islands.

My galley with a settler can drop itself off on the NE island on T71, and settle in the NW corner or T73.

Hey, I think there's something wrong with your picture; some of the parts are mysteriously blacked out!

Seriously, though, I think the plan is great. I'm not sure where I'll put the exact city placements [NE city might go 1 S, for instance], but the sites as a broad thing are okay with me. To keep things reasonable, for culture I would simply suggest limiting culture battles to religion spread and buildings that provide cultural benefit as an aside [i.e. libraries or temples]. Either way, it is not an immediate issue.

I expect both the iron island and the SE location on the other island to be settled in two turns.

I notice that you have marble in Calimari. Lucky Ducky.

-Tatan

Well, you do have stone in your other island. It seems that each of the islands gets one doubler, so theoretically each of us has "access" to both of them. But, because the marble's to the west, there's not much that can be done there.

As you can tell, I'm not going to worry too much about where you put the cities. That's between you and Civ4.

And Sullla's Civ5 SG...WOW is Civ5 awful. I'm so glad I saved $50 and my sanity in not buying it.

The problem is, that island is smaller than our island, AND I already settle 2/3 of it, with stone being in the third furthest away from me and most likely to piss Serdoa off. So in order to get a wonder resource I need to either trade or REX into my neighbors' faces... right...

Bleh, Civ5 [Warning: rant ahead]. I stopped lurking Sull[l]a's SG after the reports became mostly just "alright, sold [resource] to [AI] for X gold". And to think that before it came out, I was optimistically waiting to buy it as soon as Christmas came around. The thing that truly bugs me is that I really like a few of the concepts [hex tiles is equivalent to money, as far as I'm concerned], but the execution...

*shiver* Well, I guess that's why so many of us continue to play Civ4! Yay, PBEMs!

-Tatan

Yeah, these PBEMs will last me a long time. This one's likely to catch PBEM4-Vets soon (which is only at 590AD), and it started months before this one.

The doubler resources are one more of those things that "look" balanced, but in reality aren't. I think the iron sources should have been on separate islands. It shouldn't have been possible for one city site to block your neighbor from getting an iron (although at least he made it possible to have both players settle for iron). That gives one player way too much of an advantage for being slightly faster or better-positioned to claim that island.

So basically: Cyneheard and I both get two cities on the western island, and one city for one source of island on the iron island. Cool.

</Diplo_Spam> [I can't help it, all these emails just makes big posts so easy!]

[Adlain]

(typing on pbone so will be breif)

Nap is good idea, but no longer than 30 - 50 turns, no auto renews and no cooldowns - I don't see the point of tying our hands too much for abit of paper claiming afew turns of security.

Good outcome In the diplo, we are IMHO getting the weaker island spot up north but diplomatically we have recovered well I think and secured our gem site + another site to our west - just a thought though, we need to prioritise our settling plans. personly I would go:

• settle SE on western island NOW to get culture on that rice going, then get our iron spot before anyone gets greedy (a permanent garrison of 2+ troops is recommended) then look at trying to get stone from our southern island.

Also, with a potential nap with our we could (should) consider a war with serdoa to eliminate an adversary and get the benefits of all those loverly wonders he has (I.e. Stonhenge for free monuments)

[Tatan]

Wow, you literally hit all of my thoughts exactly. I was thinking something around 27 turns [to go to Turn 95].

Both the SE spot and the Iron spot are going to be settled on Trun 69 [two turns from now], one turn to move there, next to settle.

It is true that we are at a slight disadvantage on the square island, but Cyneheard is a a pretty big disadvantage on the Iron island, because his iron will be pillage-able, and because to get to the city he will have to wade through two of my cities. If we ever go to war [which will hopefully be faaaaar away, if ever] he will be at a massive disadvantage. And don't worry about a garrison for Iron island; I already have an archer there, another one en route, and plan to train an axeman for it ASAP.

Regarding exact city placements: I'm planning on going 1S of the gems and 2N of the gems, for two reasons:
1) All of the land possible is actually being used.
2) By having the rice be in one city's second ring and another city's third ring, I will be able to effectively combat the fact that Cyneheard is doing the same thing.


And regarding a war with Serdoa: his border city is only defended by a warrior.

I think a force of axes and cats should be enough to wipe him out [on his home island, at least]. But natural expansion comes first, and we still have 5 cities to found [remember, there are still two spots on the home island!].

[Tatan]

Quick update. Quiet turn, settlers moved into position. Forges started in many cities, whips to be used in the coming turns. Cities grow. NAP proposal up through Turn 95 sent to Cyneheard. Yawn. Pictures put off til later. Computer shutting down. Pillow at the ready.

[Adlain]

Wow, you literally hit all of my thoughts exactly. I was thinking something around 27 turns [to go to Turn 95].

Got to happen at somepoint , T 95 sounds good to me.

Both the SE spot and the Iron spot are going to be settled on Trun 69 [two turns from now], one turn to move there, next to settle.

Good, the sooner we have metal, the sooner we have Axes. and with it being Iron, Swordsmen.

It is true that we are at a slight disadvantage on the square island, but Cyneheard is a a pretty big disadvantage on the Iron island, because his iron will be pillage-able, and because to get to the city he will have to wade through two of my cities. If we ever go to war [which will hopefully be faaaaar away, if ever] he will be at a massive disadvantage. And don't worry about a garrison for Iron island; I already have an archer there, another one en route, and plan to train an axeman for it ASAP.

I dont see the piligable aspect as being a problem (too meny SP games most likly) Good to hear about the archers though, once upgraded to longbows they will provide some real long term defence.

Regarding exact city placements: I'm planning on going 1S of the gems and 2N of the gems, for two reasons:
1) All of the land possible is actually being used.
2) By having the rice be in one city's second ring and another city's third ring, I will be able to effectively combat the fact that Cyneheard is doing the same thing.

Fine by me.

And regarding a war with Serdoa: his border city is only defended by a warrior.

I think a force of axes and cats should be enough to wipe him out [on his home island, at least]. But natural expansion comes first, and we still have 5 cities to found [remember, there are still two spots on the home island!].

the longer we wait, the harder it will be, look at Danski`s problems in PB2, he had a golden chance to wipe out/ severly damage Nakor with an army of Axes/ Skermishers, never took it and suffered for it later on - we must not fall into that trap. Serdoa is weak ATM from (IMHO) too much wonder whoring and the longer we leave him the stronger he will become compaired to us. Hell even reducing him to 2 or 3 Cities will help us emncly (personly im thinking Razing unless there are wonders in the city for maintanance reasons) but the sooner we bit the bullit and go the better i will feel about the attack, and it mens we have longer to regroup before the NAP ends and potenaly have a 2 frount war on our hands.

a Note on our expansion. I am Blithley assuming that we have a good enough economy to support our expansion aims, but do we?? we must not over expand for as much as these cities will help us mid to long term, Short term over expansion will kill us and our potential to win this game.

[Tatan]

Don't have the ability to check ATM, but I think that our economy can still support a couple more cities. The last two cities on our home island will probably have to wait, though. Our research rate is mediocre right now, but that will improve with Currency and the influx of new city commerce from the gems.

If we are going to attack Serdoa , then Construction should be our next tech. Though WEs are banned, catapults will ensure our success even if Serdoa somehow acquires a large number of archers or something. I've been aiming EPs at him for a while, so it is only a matter of time until we get graphs and can see his hopefully pitiful power...

[Tatan]

Sorry, no report tonight; Meatbalz is holding the save. Sad face.

On the bright side, TT's and Meatbalz's threads have been awfully active, lately, along with the lurker thread... combined with the save hold, could this mean WAR?! I can only hope so.

[Tatan]

Quick quip: Cyneheard agreed to the NAP.

[pocketbeetle]

Just wanted to say I've been following along and enjoying all the awful jokes (mine all mine!).

Completely agree that Kyan was not thinking straight when placing all those volcanic mastervillain bases - although saying that, there does seem to be a touch of the megalomaniac in you Tatan, if all the "Death to Meatballz" statements are to be believed.

*Gave *someone* a gentle poke