[Spoilers] Defining the phrase "€˜Hung Like a Horse"€™: Pb & the Kuriotates

[Darkmantle]

Imagine if you had played a race that could actually benefit from a huge number of cities!

The double move to kill the chest was pure gold PB it defines everything about the game you have been playing.

1) keep your fingers poking in all directions looking for anything
2) when an opportunity to enrich yourself or to hurt your enemies seize it
3) do something creative and risky to do it
and most importantly
4) do it with style!

[pocketbeetle]

But switching off 'show ennemy moves' is the best recipe for forgetting about those lizardmen running almost next to your workers and hiding in the colorfull jungle - at least with my selected graphic level

Okay.

Just popping in again to say that this is an awesome read! You just keep pulling out these hilariously brilliant and unpredictable schemes!
I may not like it if I were on the receiving end of it, but as I am not, keep up the good work!

Imagine if you had played a race that could actually benefit from a huge number of cities!
The double move to kill the chest was pure gold PB it defines everything about the game you have been playing.
1) keep your fingers poking in all directions looking for anything
2) when an opportunity to enrich yourself or to hurt your enemies seize it
3) do something creative and risky to do it
and most importantly
4) do it with style!

@PB :You are amazing
I really would like to see the faces of the other players when they are reading your thread after the game.
I'm sure it would be :

Thanks guys.

Rowain: I'm expecting that when they do read it, there will be a few less smilies and a few more swear words.
And it'll probably be deserved!

I dare you to kill one more Calabim unit...

Since you didn't specify a timeframe, I'll take that dare!

But if you meant the Calabim worker near the Gems...nah.
I've just declared Nationality on the nearby Giant, and declaring war over a Worker ruins all the fun of any surprises...

Completely unrelatedly, what trait are you planning to switch to next?

Completely unrelated I'm sure.

Truth be told, I'm still undecided.
Here are the other viable choices (ignoring stuff like Org), in order of worst to best:

• Creative: lol
  Pointless given I intend to switch to OO eventually.
  
• Arcane/Spiritual: meh
  Going Arc/Spi for a short period to spam the relevant units (Adepts/Priests) would be nice, but 75 turns is too long to justify switching to either.
  
• Philosophical: not yet.
  Don't have the GP farm up properly, no real reason to go Philo.
  
• Aggressive/Charismatic: Raiders is better.
  Agg gives a free Combat I promotion to most units (inc Centaurs), Cha gives the usual xp reduction and only +1 happy per city.
  The dividing line between Agg and Cha is a little finer in FFH2 because xp is more freely available, and 100xp units such as heroes are more frequent.
  Even so, Agg probably wins.
  
• Industrious: gives +50% wonder production, double speed Forges.
  Now we're talking. There are quite a few World wonders and National wonders coming up over the next set of turns that I would like to build, including the Nat Epic/ HE/ Bazaar of Mammon/ Guild of Nine/ Pillar of Chains etc.
  
• Financial: ie no 'change' from current traits.
  
• Raiders: Ooooh.
  Note that switching to Raiders does not give all current units the Commando promotion.
  Only units that are built during the 75t of having the trait will benefit, but switching out from Raiders will not lose the promotion either.
  

I'd say the three real choices are Industrious, Financial and Raiders.

• Industrious would save me a significant amount of hammers, which would then be plowed back into producing more CAs, and would make the building of the Tower of Complacency a lot(!) less painful.
  
• Financial would allow me to continue to stomp my dominance on the tech tree, while a shift away from this trait could be a mistake, as all the low hanging techs are gone: we're now getting into the 1k+ beaker tech range.
  
• Raiders meanwhile would be...fun, both for the other players' reactions (imagine pretty much every thread would read "Ohhhhh SHIT!" ) and for the obvious military options. Hell, it might even cause Cull to post in his thread!
  But, would such a move be worth it?
  Would the loss of Financial be balanced out by forcing my neighbours to increase their unit support costs to feel secure?
  

I think it comes down to playing safe (Fin) or risky (Raiders), and I am still honestly undecided.
Depends what the impact on my GNP would be, how much it would affect reaching important targets like Hemah, the Crown of Akharien and the Pillar of Chains.
Hmm.

Given the potential switch of traits, I've also been trying to decide whether I should rush for Currency before T145 (through Code of Laws), which would allow me to get the Financial trait double speed Money Changers in time.
I'd definitely build a Money Changer (+25% gold) in Caledor, and eventually in Kwythellar and KK also.
The building is expensive at 167h, so rushing for them would save me 80-240h if I ended up switching to a non-Financial trait on T145.
I've decided it's not worth hurrying though, I've waited too long for Priesthood and RoK temples as it is.

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 136:

For once, there’s no event or splashscreen to show a screenshot of.
So jumping straight into the action, Vanilla Ice takes on a rogue Goblin Scout trying to probe the Kuriotates defense.



Dispatched with ease!
Looks like Iskender didn’t have enough faith in me to leave his Scout unmoved though.
Oh well.

Picture of the South (Diso is now working that plains cottage):



The other Fort-spawned Goblin moved South deeper into Hippus lands, so Silent Bob ventured bravely forth this time (the enticement was still the same though).

And finally an overshot, three cities grew this turn:



The Adept gained 1xp this turn (Arcane and Disciple units have a chance to gain 1xp randomly each turn from their Channeling promotion), so I promoted him to Mobility I to get him around the empire faster. He's still got one promotion unused.
Sailing completed at 100% research.


Diplo:

Hi Cull,

I picked up Sailing this turn, and the menus should now show we have a trade connection.
Feel free to request Open Borders if you're interested, and I'd appreciate if you could offer Gold also.
Let me know if there's any problems.

Kind Regards,
Pb, Navigator 1st Class Boy-King

I’m going to offer him a free Fine Clothes resource (temporary gift) to make up for the lost Gold happy, but let’s see first if he actually sticks to the terms of our deal.


I got a reply back the next day:

Yes, ask the Dwarves for gold.

You'll see about the OB, and, as for any gold, give me an offer that I can work with.

Oh dear, that’s not the sort of answer I was hoping to receive.

Rereading it, I think there’s possibly a slight misunderstanding.
I think Cull is assuming I’m asking for gp, rather than the resource.
I’ll wait for next turn, then send him another request, maybe ingame also.

[pocketbeetle]

Diplo:

First off, another missive to Cull, seeing as he doesn’t appear to have offered anything ingame:

Hi Cull,

Sorry, it's my fault for being unclear.
I wasn't asking for gp, I was requesting your Gold resource, which was part of our deal in return for helping with Selrahc.

I've also offered OB, which should help you gain extra commerce, and a Bananas for Wheat trade.
Save attached!

Kind Regards,
Pb

Meanwhile some deal brokering with Selrahc has been going on in the background.

If you remember, he approached me about loaning Sun mana, I replied that I was interested in Marble.

I've got marble in my territory, but don't quite have the technology to connect it yet. It is due in very very soon however. Next turn in fact. I have 2 workers waiting to connect up the resource, so I can definitely get it to you soon. I'm willing to trade you Marble, with one proviso. Don't use it to complete the Bone Palace. I have some fairly substantial work put into this wonder, and I wouldn't like to see it lost as a result of this deal. If you want marble for any other purpose, then I am more than willing to trade it. Is that an acceptable condition to a possible deal?

Bear in mind, I have 2 adepts working on connecting the required mana. It takes 4 turns for them to build their improvements. I should only require sun mana for 10 turns at a maximum, in 4 turns from now as within ten turns after that the two adepts will be able to connect up a local source. If other people want to make a similar trade, then this deal should only cause a slight delay.

I care not a whit about the Bone Palace: built with Marble I might just be able to recoup the hammer cost (469/2 ~ 235h) from the 9t GA, but it would be a close run thing.
The problem is I’m a little unsure here, treading in murky waters so to speak.

Selrahc wants the Sun mana to build the Tower of Divination.
For those that need the reminder, the Tower of Divination costs ~520h and gives a free tech, requires Spirit, Sun, Law and Mind mana.
It’s clear to us both that he can’t build it in 10t (I intend to attempt it and have the necessary deals in place: Sareln – Mind, Selrahc - Law, plus GArt for a GA to increase hammer output, but he’s got no chance with his smaller cities) which is why he’s going to connect his own Sun mana later.

So why not just wait 10t? Why is he in such a rush?
And what tech does he intend to take?

I really don’t like not knowing, and took a little time to reply, needing a reminder.

Hey,

Thanks for nudging - sorry this foot dragging is not deliberate.

I have to admit your no compete request on the Bone Palace set me back a bit.
It's pretty much the main reason to want Marble at this stage, as otherwise the wonder is prohibitively expensive.
Nevermind, I can still use Marble to help me build the National Epic etc, but it means I won't want the resource right now, probably in around 20 turns (estimate).

So cutting to the chase:
We already have an established deal where I loan 10t of Law and 10t of another palace mana from you, which we agreed in other trades.
I think that second loan of mana is probably going to be a request for Ice mana.

So in return for a 10t loan of Sun mana, I'm asking for a 10t loan of Marble and for that second loan to be doubled - to 2 Ice mana.
It might seem unfair asking for a resource and a mana in return for mana.
But remember Ice Elementals will be utterly useless for me, I'm just after a free Slow spell promotion basically.

To be clear,
You get: Sun mana 10t whenever you want (I assume asap?)
I get: Marble 10t, to be requested probably within the next 20t.
Law mana (10t) and 2 Ice mana (10t) to be requested in future.
Law mana may be requested separately from Ice mana, attempts will be made to give a reasonable heads up.

And I think that would be the total sum of our palace mana deals to date.

Let me know,
Pb

That would be a free Slow promotion on any Adepts built during that Ice loan period, and also ummm... a certain Archmage called Hemah.

That deal seems very reasonable to me. If you're willing to agree to one further clause then I can agree to it.

Obviously the reason I'm requesting Sun Mana is to get a head start on building the Tower of Divination. I'd ask that any request for law mana wait until after I've finished with building the tower. This wasn't part of our original deal regarding that mana, so you'd be within your rights to ask for law mana at any time. If you do request it while I'm building the tower though then the purpose behind trading for sun mana is mostly lost.

Does that sound acceptable?

Hold on a second. Very reasonable???
Now I’m really unhappy about this deal, and silliness aside, I’m getting cold feet.

Either way, Selrahc’s proposal above is not acceptable.
To take an extreme example, nothing stops him from leaving the Tower of Div unfinished at 1t and waiting 50t to get a free 10k beaker tech.

Hey Selrahc,

In theory I completely agree with your proposal, and I have no intention of trying to pull a stunt like that.
But the slight problem is, your request is very open-ended and I have no information on when you intend to finish the Tower of Div.
So I'd like to reword it, just to avoid any nasty situations:

I'll agree not to request Law mana before say, T165.

You're not expecting to take 30+ turns to build it are you?

Pb

The plan for the tower is to complete it at top speed. It should take around ~28 turns, but with the golden age from Bone Palace thrown in it should be a few turns less than that.

How about T170 as an upper threshold, with an expectation that I'll be finished before that?

I proposed that 30t limit as a joke.
Wtf are you doing?
Peons could build the Tower faster than that!

Hey Selrahc,

I'm sorry to fuss over 5 turns, but I think I'm offering a good deal.
In the unlikely event that:
a) I act like a complete bastard and demand on T165 and
b) you've still not managed to complete the Tower
...then you always have the emergency whip option etc.

T165 sounds entirely reasonable to me, I have faith in your micro skills.

Regards,
Pb, Cutthroat Boy-King

If that's your best deal then I'll just have to get it completed by T165 (or find a replacement law mana by that time at least. I think I know a dwarf who owes me one...)

My current estimates have it at a T170 completion date without taking into account the golden age. The golden age could well shave 5t off construction.. so T165 might be fine anyway. I was just looking for a little leeway.

I think I can agree to the deal as it currently stands then.

Hey,

Good to hear!
Feel free to request the Sun mana when it's convenient.

I understand what you're saying regarding leeway, and I reassure you there's a good chance I won't even bring the subject up again until T170.

Kind Regards,
Pb, Sunny Boy-King

I’ve got a bad feeling I’m making a mistake here.

Here’s why:

My plan is to knock off a couple of military techs (Warfare, Military Strategy), a few more economy options (Priesthood, Currency, Taxation), then return to the Arcane tree and bitchslap most of the techs there.
Specifically, researching Divination, Elementalism and possibly Alteration also (each ~860b).
I’ll then call in the mana loans and start building the Tower of Divination in Caledor.
Using the 1.6x prerequisite multiplier to blast through Sorcery (which is a meaty 2.1k b) would allow me to take Arcane Lore (3.9k b) as the free tech.
Arcane Lore is a little cheaper than the techs I normally take with the Tower of Div (usually Warhorses/Mithril Working at ~8k b) but it’s a nice target, with a free GSci for the first past the post, a priority wonder in the Crown of Akharien and of course Hemah.

My worry is that it’s a pretty standard move: Selrahc could be aiming to do the same thing. And he’s got 30 turns worth of research to do it.
Can he?
Hard to tell.

Selrahc has swiftly moved into #2 GNP, both due to him regrowing his cities after a serious whipfest and also Iskender running a lot of 0% science turns.
Iskender seems to be spending the gold on upgrading Scouts and Warriors to Archers, so clearly he either fears me or the Calabim, probably both.
The Illian GNP is ~85 but I have no idea of his maintenance costs. He seems to be keeping ~2 warriors as garrison per city and so, pulling numbers out of the air, let’s say he has a total maintenance of around ~45?
So 85 + 45 = 130 GNP actual, of which 30 (3gp x 10 cities) is from Markets.
Take out a Monument in every city also (20 culture) leaves (130 - 30 - 20) ~80b per turn at deficit research.
80b per turn for 30 turns is 2.4k b.
So he could possibly research Sorcery also, but it would be very close, and explains my insistence on T165.

Rest assured, I’ll be cursing the forum blue if he does beat me to Arcane Lore.
Watch this space.

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 137:

Sailing splashscreen greets me on loading the save:



Trade up next!

In the North, I got tired of waiting for the world’s loneliest Bear to reproduce, so sent in Pixiefoot to kick some furry ass.



Which I guess means that Tibbers is going to have to dance.
Oh well.

West of Avelorn, the Adept cast Spring on a desert hill, increasing the tile yield.



You can see the latest worker, Billy Bob Thornton, starting to spread irrigated farms 1N of Avelorn.
In the far top right, Selrahc has an Adept named “Jadis” building a Mind node.

In other news, I found out in a game last night that Scorch won’t reduce grassland down to plains, despite the fact I could have sworn otherwise.
Which screws with my plan to increase hammers at Kwythellar by reducing the grassland mines down to plains etc.
Sucks to be me!

In the South, it may be my paranoia, but Iskender appears to be making another foray to get visibility on KK with that Scout.
Borders pop in 7 turns, I’ll stick a Worker in his way to stop him (still at war) if necessary.



Worked a few more hammers and a little less food at Caledor to get the Library completed.
Third Silks is being improved in preparation for trading to Iskender.
Another fruitless maritime Hawk flight.



Ran 0% science to build up some gold and wait for the Library.

Demographics:

Some various foreign intel that I may or may not have already stated in no particular order:

• Sareln used his GSci for an Academy in Nameless Tower.
  His Disciple of Leaves didn’t spread FoL to the Calabim capital Prespur, but travelled up to Nameless Tower.
  However it seems the Calabim have got a natural religion spread already(!) to a minor city.
  
• Bob researched Sanitation last turn.
  Crop Yield graph spiked, he’s now close to overtaking me, tile yields confirm. (Fp aristofarm: 5f/3c non-Financial)
  
• Selrahc settled his tenth city: NutcrackeSuite.
  It’s up in the tundra near a Copper resource. Expect him to settle an eleventh soon.
  
• Bob settled his seventh city last turn or so: Pavu’nar.
  
• Trade screen with Cull shows he has 3 Bananas.
  I can only see two in his land, so one of his cities and the third must be in a small patch of fog to the West of Khazak.
  
• Noticed that Iskender has renamed himself ingame from TheArchduke, which I ‘ve been wanting him to do for a while.
  Looking back over the screenshots, I think it’s taken me several turns to notice.
  

The trade connections opened by Sailing lets me peek at their resources (and vice versa):

Offered Cull various trades as per diplo.
I’m doing him a favour with the OB – Selrahc gives me all the trade routes my four cities need, while Wheat is much stronger than Bananas (this will probably be only a temporary trade until I hopefully get my own source).

Bob seems to lack Wheat, which is worth noting because it’s one of the 10% Deruptus Brewery resources.
I must remember next turn to check for any Wheat in Calabim lands: if there are none then I’ll look into organising an embargo on him.
I know Cull doesn’t have any obviously, I can’t see any in Iskender’s land nor Sareln’s, which just leaves Selrahc.
Finally, now that I have a connection with Sareln I could put my ‘preferred trade partner for Cotton’ deal into place.

I should do it really – I’m currently getting Cotton from Selrahc in return for two happy resources, ie it would weaken him.
But I’m not going to, because one of those resources is Ale from the Deruptus brewery.
The longer Selrahc doesn’t build his own brewery, the longer he doesn’t receive that sweet sweet 30% raw commerce boost.
Although saying that, cancelling the deal while his capital is mid Bone Palace would be pretty vicious (and thus is clearly my favourite option! ).

Looking at tile yields, I’m estimating he’s going to build the Tower of Div in Chestnut Roast (Sareln’s old capital) and the Bone Palace at his capital Silent Night.
The only other Illian city with a respectable hammer output at this time is Twelve Days, and it’s a little food poor with only a Pig.

[Maksim]

Why are you going for Trade right now? Is it for the ability to see other civilizations' technologies? Or the small commerce bonus that an extra trade route will bring (well, not so small, perhaps - 5-10% overall)?

Also, how many Centaur Archers do you have right now, and how many more do you intent to build in the near future?

[Ravus Sol]

I also don't get the Trade right now option... Do the settlements get money from trade? I suppose making them cost effective that way instead of via temples would be worth it...

How come you aren't letting the hawks leave your cities? With open borders with the Illians i thought you could move hawks into their cities, is there some kind of agreement in place not to do that? I probably missed it way back when :-p

So the plan is to only change to OO once you can get hemah? Then get the tech for Saverous? Getting two heroes at once would probably have a fun physcological impact on your victims-sorry i mean your opponents.

Either way, good luck on the attempted political trickery and getting the Tower of Div first!

P.S did you ever get any of the Religious shrines?

[novice]

Is the Tower of Divination a national wonder or a world wonder?

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 138:

Quiet turn this one.
Cull accepted the offered trades and gifted Gold, which means Kwythellar now has a happy cap of 25.

Down in the South, no surprises where Iskender’s Scout moved to.



Pixiefoot and her new pet Bear are heading for the Kurio border, Vanilla Ice is healing up (5 turns – blech poison), the Adept is still Springing and the latest CA: Ixion heads for KK.



Everyone except Avelorn grew, we’ve now got size 20 cities.
Ran 100% research to knock off Trade, Priesthood next.


Demographics:

Showing this because someone has suddenly jumped to 121 GNP.
I suspect that’s Iskender, who’s probably been running 0% science recently while his cottages quietly upgraded, and now that he’s researching again his Academy has kicked in.
If I’m wrong, and it’s Selrahc, I’ll be slightly worried.

Trade coming in also gives me info on my opponent’s techs:



I haven’t gone indepth yet, but a quick glance shows no surprises: there are very few techs that I don’t have (mainly CoL, the FoL religious tech, and Selrahc with Divination and Way of the Wicked).

One good thing that reassures me regarding the Sun mana deal with Selrahc: he doesn’t have Writing, a prequisite for Sorcery.
Oh and I made a mistake with the numbers of Divination/Alteration/Elementalism – they’re only 690b not 860b (quick speed), so even cheaper.

[pocketbeetle]

Why are you going for Trade right now? Is it for the ability to see other civilizations' technologies? Or the small commerce bonus that an extra trade route will bring (well, not so small, perhaps - 5-10% overall)?

I also don't get the Trade right now option... Do the settlements get money from trade? I suppose making them cost effective that way instead of via temples would be worth it...

I did say at some point I was going to get it.
The next important tech is Priesthood, for the Rok Priests (Stonewardens).
They'll be produced at Caledor, which is currently busy constructing a Library (now built) and a Public Baths.
As such, I'm just slotting in a few 'filler' techs like Trade.

Maksim pretty much hit the nail on the head with the reasons for Trade, firstly the commerce is nice (I get more routes than my four cities need from Selrahc alone, and now I have OB with Cull too).
Secondly, I was tired of being blind and not having any info on the other players' techs.
Thirdly, another reason for getting Trade is the simple fact that at 480b plus a 1.4x multiplier, it's damn cheap!
As can be seen, I've basically blasted through it in one turn.

Last but not least, it opens up Honor and Deception, the two religious techs for Empyrean and CoE.
I'd need to get Way of the Wise/Wicked to research either and have no solid plans of founding them any time soon.
But those techs are cheap also, and I do like collecting my Holy cities...

Also, how many Centaur Archers do you have right now, and how many more do you intent to build in the near future?

I'd estimate I've got around nine at the moment.

How many in the future?
Heaven knows, as many as Kwythellar can spit out.
Let's say 35 as a nice round number.

How come you aren't letting the hawks leave your cities? With open borders with the Illians i thought you could move hawks into their cities, is there some kind of agreement in place not to do that? I probably missed it way back when :-p

I specifically worded the agreement to allow non combat units within each other's territory, so Hawks are definitely allowed.
Simple courtesy is stopping me at the moment: Selrahc's playing a quiet settling game, spaming cities to fill out the huge tracts of land that he has, and doing nothing unusual afaik.
I see no reason to annoy him.

So the plan is to only change to OO once you can get hemah? Then get the tech for Saverous? Getting two heroes at once would probably have a fun physcological impact on your victims-sorry i mean your opponents.

That's roughly the plan yeah.

Either way, good luck on the attempted political trickery and getting the Tower of Div first!
P.S did you ever get any of the Religious shrines?

Is the Tower of Divination a national wonder or a world wonder?

Tower of Div is a National wonder, so there's no race for it so long as Selrahc doesn't try and reach Arcane Lore with his.
And no, no religious shrines yet.
I've only had one GPro who was used to bulb RoK.